DWI Guru Peter Lederman

MERP (00:00.3)
before we, you just need to wait a moment to make sure everything's uploaded before you actually log off. that's the first thing. Second thing is we can edit anything that needs to be edited. So if you start to say something and you want to rephrase it, or if you finish saying something and you want to re-state it better, just take a pause and say it again and we'll be able to edit that out.

Peter Lederman (00:08.089)
Yeah, yeah, okay.

MERP (00:30.222)
And the third thing is it's just a conversation that we're having. I'm gonna, I do have questions, but if we're just having the conversation and it's flowing, I'm not gonna follow what I wrote to prepare for this, you know? And last thing is I do a little introduction before we start. I'm...

Peter Lederman (00:35.536)
Yeah.

MERP (00:57.282)
That's the worst that I am on the whole thing, the introduction. I'm good at the conversation. So it might take me more than one take. I think I answered everything, right, Tom?

Peter Lederman (01:01.785)
Yep. Yep, understood.

MERP (01:11.822)
Are you ready, Peter?

Peter Lederman (01:15.331)
Yes.

MERP (01:16.419)
Great.

Peter Lederman (01:19.482)
Have fun. Have fun. Me too.

MERP (01:19.662)
Today, what?

You too!

MERP (01:27.618)
Today on the Mighty Merc Podcast, I'm honored to be joined by Peter Letterman, an attorney whose career has helped shape DWI defense and municipal court practice in New Jersey for more than five decades.

For the past 35 years, Peter's practice has been exclusively devoted to representing individuals charged with driving while intoxicated and related municipal court offenses, having defended more than 4,000 clients across the state. He is certified by the New Jersey Supreme Court as a municipal court trial attorney, a designation that reflects the highest level of confidence in that area. Peter is not only a courtroom advocate, but a thought leader and institutional voice in municipal court law.

He has argued before the New Jersey Supreme Court, testified before the legislature on DWI issues, served as chair of the New Jersey State Bar Association Municipal Court Committee, and currently chairs the Middlesex County Bar Association Ad Hoc Committee on Municipal Court Reform.

He also has played a role in landmark cases such as State v. Chun and State v. Foley, cases that fundamentally shaped how Alcatest's evidence is used in New Jersey courts. Today's conversation is about his career built on focus, credibility, and reform, what Peter has seen change, what hasn't, and what lawyers, judges, and policymakers still need to confront when it comes to DWI enforcement and municipal court justice. Welcome.

Peter Lederman (02:56.687)
I am overwhelmed by such a nice introduction. By the way, you said I'm certified. My wife says I've been certifiable for a long time, so that's very consistent.

MERP (03:08.174)
Well, it's good because now you have two verifications of that being certified. So the fact that you're... I'm good. I've been, you know, running around from court to court the life of a criminal defense attorney.

Peter Lederman (03:13.42)
No question about it. No question about it. How are you, man? How are you doing?

Peter Lederman (03:25.102)
As we do, yeah, I just got back myself a few minutes ago.

MERP (03:30.562)
Just in time, just in time.

Peter Lederman (03:32.079)
inhaled my lunch, did a virtual before that, dealt with an unruly judge.

MERP (03:38.648)
Did you help make that judge less unruly?

Peter Lederman (03:41.58)
I tried my best, but it's very difficult. She is very difficult.

MERP (03:46.818)
gonna ask, I'm not even starting with my questions, I really do want to ask this question, is...

Peter Lederman (03:50.25)
I know that was my plan. That was my plan. I want to interview you. See that's I want to get you off your your you know out of your rhythm by asking you questions instead of you asking me. Well, but you know it's a great tactic. It's you know.

MERP (03:59.165)
that's so funny. Whoa!

We'll see how it ends in the end to ask more questions. But when you have an unruly judge, based on the fact of your experience and your years practicing, I think you've been practicing since 70.

Peter Lederman (04:05.358)
We will see, yes.

Yeah.

Peter Lederman (04:16.78)
By the way, don't exaggerate that, okay? I mean, it's a big number, but you don't have to...

MERP (04:21.599)
is it it is it's actually more than five decades if you were practicing since nineteen seventy four. How do you. So how do you- handle a judge that is being unruly probably and I say this- I'm gonna say that probably isn't as knowledgeable about the subject as you are.

Peter Lederman (04:24.832)
No, stop. Stop. just stop. There's a problem with, wait, there's a technological problem with, it's there again, okay.

MERP (04:49.069)
And I know you're always professional in court. How do you feel like not losing your cool that doesn't help anyone in court?

Peter Lederman (05:02.615)
So you know what you should do, but what you do do is sometimes different from what you should do. So I was really lucky when I was a kid. I spent my entire summers at the Jersey Shore. Now I did get problems that developed later on with my skin, know, things like that, which they didn't know about back then. But you know, you did learn things. I love the ocean and all that stuff. And you learn at a young age.

MERP (05:27.341)
That was the olden days in the 1900s.

Peter Lederman (05:32.558)
It was before that actually, my friend. But you learned at a young age, if there's a big wave that's coming, it's always better to duck the wave, not to try to... So, you know, if you have a judge that's irrationally difficult, it's better to duck the wave. Now, it's easy to say that it's hard to do that because every cell in your body wants to say, no, that's not right.

And it's somewhere between there. And sometimes you do what you think you should do and you want to do and you know you should do. other times you do what you do. So it's hard sometimes. I did. I did behave. I got one case dismissed, so that was a good thing. And maybe the other one also. But I did get some. This shows me watch this someday. So there was a little in between.

MERP (06:13.751)
Did you behave today?

Peter Lederman (06:31.991)
good judge. But it happens. There's some real bad judges out there. There's some terrible judges out there. Judges who shouldn't be doing what they do, who seem to have issues and the robes empower them to have those worst instincts, those worst angels, percolate up through them.

MERP (06:34.22)
it.

MERP (06:52.951)
What do you think makes a bad judge and what makes a good judge in your mind?

Peter Lederman (07:01.335)
So you want to have a chance to communicate with the judge. You want to be able to say what you think you have to say, what you know you have to say on behalf of your client. But be a judge, you won't do it. It's a boxing match with the judge. And so you don't have that opportunity to try to persuade. And it's all about persuasion. That was one of my later in life realizations. It's about persuasion more than it's about the law.

MERP (07:21.517)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (07:29.802)
So I can't persuade with somebody who I'm having a boxing match with in court.

MERP (07:34.647)
Nobody's listening at that point, right?

Peter Lederman (07:37.79)
No, we're exchanging blows. So, yeah, it's not fun. And you know, it's...

know, and the judge is supposed to be a judge. The judge is supposed to be sitting there and listening and administering and processing and not fighting with you. And it seems like some judges are adversarial when the bell rings to share that boxing, the expression of it. Yeah.

MERP (07:57.388)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (08:08.479)
Do you think it's because of, and so when we're talking about judges right now, I'm assuming you're talking about municipal court judges since most of the work that you're doing or all of the work that you're doing now is DWI. So I'm not sure how often you're in superior court where I kind of jump back and forth. But I find that a lot of the municipal court judges are coming from the prosecutor's side. So they were the town's prosecutor for X amount of year.

Peter Lederman (08:16.906)
Yes.

MERP (08:38.583)
and then they're taking the bench. So do you think they're still keeping that adversarial role or...

Peter Lederman (08:46.796)
There's no question that some judges, if you pull the robes back, there's the yellow stripe that goes down their pants. There's just no question about that. But no, think a lot of judges are really good. A lot of judges are good. lot of judges do come from, listen, municipal court world is a strange world. How people become judges there is mostly not from merit. It's a political appointment and politics is, you know, it's something different from

MERP (08:58.701)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (09:17.035)
trying to become a Superior Court Judge. There's politics in that also, but there's reviews, evaluation, J-Pac and all that stuff. We have zero in a municipal court. And there are some judges, I'm sorry, there are some judges who are abusive and not just adversarial, but they're not good judges. They're not good judges.

MERP (09:28.395)
All right,

MERP (09:42.062)
Right. Well, municipal court, always find difficult if you have a judge like that because as I say to my clients often, you know, the judge is hired by the same people that hire the police officers in the town, right? So they, and they're paid and they're paid by the same.

Peter Lederman (09:58.153)
It's more than that, they're paid by them. Yes.

MERP (10:03.66)
individuals that pay the prosecutor's salary as well. So it does seem like they're all on the same team. Correct. And then I would say that, you know, I say to my clients a lot in municipal court, if we're going to go to trial on cases in municipal court, they have to be willing to let me create a record.

Peter Lederman (10:10.261)
Let's not forget the public defender, right?

MERP (10:30.538)
Because I don't necessarily think we're going to win it in municipal court. And they have to be able to accept that it's a two-step process at minimum. That I'm going to create a record so that we can appeal it and be more successful in superior court.

Peter Lederman (10:46.005)
But that requires a good judge at the Superior Court level. So in some counties, we have judges that had denied, denied, guilty, guilty, guilty, That second step is a procedural step, but in reality, it's not a functional step to get to where you want to get to. And of course, if you get to the Appellate Division, it gets even worse the higher you get. So although Supreme Court has shown some

MERP (10:49.708)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (11:13.426)
willingness to listen lately, that's refreshing. I believe the point of contact is really going to be the prosecutor. I don't think you want to get to trial. I think if you get to trial, you've given up control over the case because now somebody else is running the side. You know that story about you should win but you lose or you should lose but you win. I don't want to be in that position. I want to

MERP (11:22.156)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (11:41.355)
identify the goal with the client and obtain that goal with the prosecutor more times than, and you know, we develop relationships from people we work with, with people we work with. if they know who you are and if they trust you, if you have credibility, if they know you're going to litigate, if there was a trial, if there was going to be a trial, you will get to most of the times, almost every time the result that you want to get to.

MERP (11:54.55)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (12:11.368)
without the trial. My thought is going to be resolve the case at the prosecutorial level. Don't try not to get farther. But if you have to, I my clients, I love the smell of napalm in the morning. And I have to have funny story about that. I spoke.

MERP (12:13.334)
bright.

MERP (12:29.883)
I was gonna say, but they don't know what you're talking about, do they?

Peter Lederman (12:32.49)
I know that's horrible. I did a presentation at the Bar Convention about municipal court and a question was asked to me through a lot of people in the room and the question was asked to me, do you trial all your cases? And I said, no. And I told them what I just told you that I want to resolve it based on my negotiation with the prosecutor. But I said, I do love the smell of napalm in the morning. I think that's a great line.

20 % of the people left, 80 % looked at each other and went, did he drink too much coffee or was he up all last night? A terrible thing about being fortunate enough to survive a long time is that culture passes you by. Some people know who the Rolling Stones are, but not a lot of people.

MERP (13:07.596)
try it. Yeah.

MERP (13:22.336)
They know, no, I'm going to beg to differ with you on that. I mean, I have kids in their 20s, and they definitely know who the Rolling Stones are.

Peter Lederman (13:31.123)
Some kids understand what classic rock really means. But I was talking to someone last night, so I go to adult fitness classes, you workouts. And the guy who was running the class said, okay, we're gonna have some classic rock. And he played something from the talking heads or, know, I I said, that's not classic rock.

MERP (13:42.23)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (13:51.254)
You said that's the 80s, that's not true, classic rock. All right.

Peter Lederman (13:53.36)
Yeah, that's not classic rock. So the same thing true for movies, you all the things that I've learned, funny things to say and stuff like that. I say it now, well, hopefully funny things. I say it now and people don't have any idea what I'm saying and they go, that's too bad, he's losing his mind. That's a thing.

MERP (14:08.74)
No, they just don't understand your cultural references anymore. Yeah. So I'm going to ask you, you've had a pretty long legal career. And I say that because I've been practicing. Well, I've been...

Peter Lederman (14:12.048)
No, they don't.

Peter Lederman (14:20.392)
There you go again. There you go again. You keep prepping on that. It's like you're trying to pull me down, but you can't. I'm strong and I'm proud and well, yeah. and you admit it.

MERP (14:27.2)
You're strong and powerful. So I've been practicing 30 years, Peter, and so, and I will admit that. So my first question is,

Peter Lederman (14:38.089)
You were the youngest person ever to go to law school. Is that true? You graduated 15 years ago? Prodigy. Yes. Okay.

MERP (14:40.754)
That is, I was a child prodigy. So did you know that you were interested in defense work in law school? How did you end up in this, in the end, in a very niche area of law? It's a specialty that you are an expert in.

Peter Lederman (14:59.121)
It is.

I'm proud to tell clients that I am a one trick pony. It's true, but I am proud of it.

think one of the exciting and-

think a lot of, and I hate to talk about young people, anybody younger than me is not a young person, but I'm talking about people in their formative years. You hear people talk about it on television, they don't have careers, they don't have hope, they don't think they can succeed. I see in a lot of my clients, and I was talking to another attorney about this in court today, they don't believe that they can succeed. They're a...

abusing alcohol and meds and other things because they have no hope. Believe it, I, that's something that I can't imagine. That's, that's, I always thought that I was, we had a reunion, believe it or not, I still have living classmates, but we had a reunion and we went around this very small circle of people and we were all supposed to say something, you know, and I, and I said that my wife says,

MERP (15:50.464)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (15:58.957)
I

Peter Lederman (16:10.088)
than I'm unrational, I'm unrationally optimistic or irrationally optimistic. I am, that's who am. These people are not optimistic. I don't know what made them this way. Somebody told me, well, it's being on the internet all the time. I don't know. But the truth of the matter is, and I tell this to them, even when I get them, and probably when you get them too, but when I get them, they're at the bottom of the curve. They've hopefully bottomed out. And I tell them, all right,

MERP (16:15.222)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (16:34.304)
Yeah.

Peter Lederman (16:40.439)
Can I say bad words like shit? Am I allowed to say shit? Okay, I want permission. didn't want Yes, okay, I did not want to foul your pristine podcast so I Tell kids, know work your way back, know figure it out If something doesn't work, try something else if that doesn't work try something else, but just keep persistent Don't give up. Just keep you'll get there, but you might not be so sure so

MERP (16:43.198)
You are allowed to say anything you want. believe in the first amendment here, so.

MERP (17:05.868)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (17:10.52)
in a long-winded way, that's what happened to me. I'm long-winded all the time. That's why law is good profession for me, because you need wind, right? You have to have lots of wind.

MERP (17:13.856)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (17:22.906)
Right. Do you say things like, you're on her briefly, and they know you're not going to be brief at all?

Peter Lederman (17:26.439)
Yes. They go like this. Yes. So what happened to me was, so I went to school during a time when

We were not career driven. Like the kids today, when they're 15 years old, they know they want to be the barons of Wall Street. They want to have $20 million houses and $50 million boats and private jets and all that stuff. I didn't care. My friends really didn't care. This was a different time. There was some, what we called then, social awareness. Focus was different, focus on how much money you can make. And I'm not bragging about

MERP (17:56.533)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (18:09.861)
my generation or anything else, but it was different. and law school was not expensive. And so I could go to law school and go on with what I tried to do in college, which was sort of figure things out. So I found something in law school that I was interesting, which has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm doing now. My area of specialty was New Jersey closed corporations, closely held corporations, right?

MERP (18:16.149)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (18:38.665)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (18:39.174)
I, my professor had written the book, the whole thing. I was ready to do shareholder agreements and buy sell agreements. And it's like we do it in municipal court all the time. Right. Yes. Very contract heavy. So, so I literally started practicing by hanging out a shingle.

MERP (18:49.042)
yeah, very contract heavy.

MERP (19:01.705)
That's crazy. That's crazy in my mind. As somebody who like was told for years to hang out my own shingle and I had so much fear doing it because you know my income was so essential and

Peter Lederman (19:01.817)
I still have the shi- I still have the tango. It is.

Peter Lederman (19:10.554)
Yes.

MERP (19:21.193)
You know, I had four kids and I was so scared and I literally was like, I describe it as like hanging off a cliff and everyone's saying like, fly, fly. And then like pulling my fingers back and then I had to fly and you know, seven years later and I was a partner in another law firm. Seven years later, I think I should have, I should have opened up my law firm earlier, but I just was not brave. So when you say I just hung out the.

Peter Lederman (19:38.149)
That's right.

MERP (19:51.1)
I don't, is that a man thing? I wonder if that is. I have to think about it. That confidence of like being like, I can figure this out.

Peter Lederman (19:54.617)
What? What does that have to do with anything?

Right.

I use the term irrationally optimistic.

MERP (20:04.747)
That's true. That's true.

Peter Lederman (20:06.768)
But the other thing was at the time I really had no expenses. I mean, I had an old rusting out Volkswagen convertible with five on the floor. I was sharing an apartment with another guy. I wasn't aspiring to go on vacations to the Caribbean or Europe or I was sort of happy and you know, just sort of.

MERP (20:14.687)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (20:38.277)
day by day kind of thing, you know? And so I hung out a shingle. I still have the piece of wood with my name on it. And my first year I grossed $10,500. Gross. What?

MERP (20:46.315)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (20:54.315)
I'm not trying to be mean when I say this. I'm assuming that wasn't a very good year, but...

Peter Lederman (21:00.159)
No, it was terrible. mean, but somehow I got by. And then the next thing that happened that was a life changing event was I met my wife. And I then using all of my lawyerly skills persuaded her to share a residence with me to the horror of my grandfather. He said I couldn't do it because that was

MERP (21:21.483)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (21:29.017)
What was the word he used? Yeah, but the way he described it, he got the wrong sin. something really crazy. But I really love my grandfather. But I knew this is what I wanted to do. And yet we still had no money. We didn't have to pay the rent. We rented a little place, a bungalow, and didn't know how to do it. But I...

MERP (21:31.081)
Are you living in sin? That sort of thing?

Peter Lederman (21:56.782)
You know, put the shovel out there and it worked. The only thing I could do. And so I was building up a practice and, you know, ultimately we could afford to pay the gas bill and, you know, put gasoline in the car and put food on the table.

MERP (22:14.643)
And at that time, were you a jack of all trades?

Peter Lederman (22:17.349)
Yeah, yeah, I was doing real estate closings and yeah, I was doing everything and I was unhappy because I wasn't really good at anything. You know, I was sort of good at doing real estate transactions. you know, I was doing everything I was doing. I was doing med now I was doing crazy stuff, you know, I mean, because I was. Yes. Yes, I still look. Yes. I still don't understand workers compensation. But yeah, I did that too.

MERP (22:22.283)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (22:33.515)
It was whoever walked through the door. They walked in, you were like, I'm your lawyer, I can do that.

Peter Lederman (22:48.068)
I did that for about five years and then I got a phone call. The Bolt from the Blue. It was the mayor of Piscataway. That's where my office was. Didn't know the guy. He didn't know me. If he had done more of a background search, he would have found that my family was deeply rooted in the other political party than he was. But he said, do you want to be a prosecutor?

MERP (22:54.475)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (23:15.189)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (23:17.04)
And to be totally honest with you, I had no idea what a prosecutor did. Absolutely no idea.

MERP (23:23.627)
But you did know it was a guaranteed salary, a guaranteed, not a full salary, but it's guaranteed money coming in.

Peter Lederman (23:26.692)
No, no, it's-

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but it sounded cool. So I said, OK, I'll do it. This is time for a drink. What's in your for? I've got vodka in mine, I'm not driving tonight.

MERP (23:42.623)
I have like a lemon, strawberry lemonade in my water bottle. No vodka, no vodka. No.

Peter Lederman (23:49.869)
Same, the same folder? Okay. So, so I took the job and I remember the first day I got a stack of tickets. It was a very busy court. I have five jurisdictions. I mean, five police departments, state police, state highway went through town, Rutgers University police, University of medicine, dentistry police, park police. And then it was like a 40, 50 square mile township. It was a big town.

So was, you know, a lot of stuff. And my first stack of tickets was, you know, more than an inch thick, and just popped it. And at the bottom of the stack was 10, 12 DWIs. And something about it just fascinated me. I don't know why. It could have been some contact I had with alcoholism somewhere and people very close to me. It could have been part of it.

MERP (24:32.263)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (24:46.42)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (24:49.283)
I didn't think about it like that, but it just was, I found it fascinating. And I started to get good at it. And then I was getting my feet under me. You know what that's like, right? Feeling comfortable on your feet and feeling strong on your feet, you know? And I liked it. I liked trying to take it.

MERP (25:00.884)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (25:08.54)
Right. And you can really only get that when you're in court. That's the way you really gain that muscle. And I tell all young attorneys, if they say they want to be trial attorneys, that they should go to either a public defender's office or a prosecutor's office. Because it's the only way to really learn and get comfortable in court like that.

Peter Lederman (25:13.175)
Yes.

Peter Lederman (25:19.0)
Yes.

Peter Lederman (25:36.29)
You know, before the epidemic, you could go to court and watch what other lawyers did. Not so much now with the virtual court. You could learn by watching us, but I had to learn by doing. And I lasted as a municipal prosecutor for a few years. I did not make the people who put me in office happy with showing my gratitude. Is that a nice way of saying it?

MERP (25:43.305)
You

Right.

MERP (25:49.94)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (26:05.979)
Yes, it is a very politically correct way of saying it. You didn't burn any bridges there. That was like the best way.

Peter Lederman (26:06.378)
You know what I'm saying? You know what I'm saying? Yeah. No. No. So they invited somebody else who was more willing to ingratiate them than I was. But I had gotten the bug had bitten me and I knew I wanted to be back because I got pretty good at it. And I was up on all the law from, you know, dealing with it.

My court was a very busy court. We would start 9 in the morning and go to 11 o'clock at night. The whole afternoon would be DWI cases, starting at 11 o'clock and going until we finished. And then we'd do a night session after that same day. So yeah, I started getting good at it. I started learning about the cases. But I knew that's what I wanted to do. And I started building a practice and getting a reputation. And I ended up doing it. That became my career.

MERP (26:38.634)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (27:01.218)
You know, I mean, I was at a point in my life where I, there were times when I wasn't even sure I wanted to practice law. That was before I met Mary Beth and had kids and all that stuff. But, cause I wasn't really, wasn't that into it. I have to be honest with you. I, it didn't really, there was no fire in my belly. But when I started doing the GWF stuff, the fire started in my belly and it's kept running.

MERP (27:28.446)
So just to let you know, when you said you didn't enjoy it, it's actually advice that I give to young lawyers is that if you're not doing the right area of law, like what excites you, you will be miserable as an attorney. And you said it. You were just taking anything. You were a jack of all trades. So.

Peter Lederman (27:48.107)
But I was happy to support my family too. So, you that wasn't a horrible thing. listen, I learned stuff doing the other stuff that somehow helps me in my DWI cases. That's one of the takeaways. You know, it's not, if I had just done DWI from the start, I wouldn't have had that other knowledge, which helps me. The other thing that's really interesting, I wanted to note, I wrote an article for the law journal, Advice to Young Lawyers. And the first,

MERP (27:53.16)
I

MERP (28:06.728)
right.

Peter Lederman (28:17.173)
thing that I said, don't do unless you love it. Make sure you have passion for it. And that's the most important thing. One day about 20 years ago, I got a phone call from my youngest daughter. She graduated college. And she was both of my daughters were English majors. My oldest daughter works for a large corporation for doing internal communications. Very good. The other one came out and started doing that type of work.

She wasn't happy. She calls me up at the office. still remember it. was a Friday afternoon. I remember sitting at my desk. And she said to me, Daddy, I think I want to go to law school. And without thinking about it, the first words out of my mouth were, don't do it unless you love it. And then she said, well, what do want me to do? And I said, get a job in the law office. See what lawyers do. See how they fight with each other. They fight with the clients. They fight with the courts. And if that's what you want to do, go to law school. So yes, you've got to love it. And I did not have that love for it at first.

MERP (28:56.266)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (29:12.361)
And then I was lucky. I was lucky. I found something I'd love to do that if I spent the time doing it. I'd miss it from my family or my other pursuits, but if I had to do it to support my family, I would love doing it. And I did love it. I still love it. So I still do it.

MERP (29:30.41)
Well, I think that that's what happens when I know lawyers that are not happy with being lawyers. It's because they are in an area of law that they know so well. They're not willing to change or do something different, but they're making enough money to support their family. So for them, it really is a job. I think what I do as a criminal defense attorney, I think like,

Because I'm dealing with people's lives and their freedom, I think if you're not passionate about it, you can't be good at it. I really like my clients. I really like what I do. I like being in court. And I think I'm effective because of that. I can't imagine hating what I do and being able to represent my clients as effectively.

Peter Lederman (30:24.071)
I agree. For a lot of people, it's transactional. We would refer to it as throwing your client under the bus. But I get paid, OK, I'll argue. OK, this is the best I can do. Done. For you and for me, it's more than that. I get tremendous satisfaction helping people.

MERP (30:44.881)
Yeah, it's a great feeling. I had someone today call me and I'm calling January expungement month. I think that the new year came and a lot of people are like, you know what, I want to get things off my record. I've handled a lot of calls, but I talked to a client today and just talking to him about the expungement process and what I could do. And I was telling him my fees and, and he said at the end, he said, you are the only lawyer that I love.

Peter Lederman (30:46.963)
I did.

MERP (31:14.877)
I, you know, and I was thinking that that's like a great feeling that, you know, most people go lawyers and, know, to get that reaction. so I'm going to ask. Yes.

Peter Lederman (31:27.776)
But let me ask you a question. Let me ask you a question. How did you get to do what you're doing? I mean, I know there are women that go into prosecuting, some very good, excellent women trial lawyers that prosecute, but it's down and dirty too, right? Why?

MERP (31:44.33)
Right. So I never ended up doing any prosecuting. I did go to law school thinking that I wanted to work for a district attorney or a prosecutor's office. And I was very interested in being in violent crimes against women and children sort of idea of prosecuting. So I went to law school. had an aunt who

was an attorney in Texas, and she was amazing, and she's brilliant and funny. she inspired me. She started out as a US attorney and then is a federal defense attorney now. And so she inspired me. And I went to law school, and I interviewed my first year with the district attorney's office in Philadelphia.

I was in the interview and I was being asked questions about what I would do if the victim of a sexual assault did not want to proceed on a case. And if she didn't testify, the defendant would go free. And I knew I was answering the question the way, like, completely incorrect to what the person interviewing wanted me to say.

They wanted me to say I would get a material witness warrant and bring that person in and they would have to testify. And I didn't understand that that was the answer, but I knew my answer was wrong, which is if this woman who's a victim of that crime doesn't want to proceed, then forcing her to proceed would be wrong. It would be causing her to have more trauma.

The person interviewing me who was a district attorney kept trying to have me change my answer and it didn't work. And I walked out of that meeting and the one thing I did know is that I was not meant to be a prosecutor or a district attorney. And all my friends knew, they said, you're a defense attorney. And I ended up at the public defender's office in Philly for the first six years of my career.

Peter Lederman (33:51.902)
Mm.

MERP (34:04.689)
And it was the perfect fit for me. I learned so much. It was the best learning experience, more than any law school, any class. I was in court every day. And they really taught you to be a trial attorney while you were there. It took about two years for you to even be offered a jury trial while you were learning.

to handle bench trials and juvenile trials and preliminary hearings. So, I mean, that's how I ended up doing criminal defense. I never thought I was gonna do private criminal defense, but my husband and I at the time had four kids and four years. And I stayed home after the fourth one and taught at Rowan University in their law and justice department. And when my youngest was starting kindergarten,

Barry was a teacher and he said, one of us can make money and one of us really can't make money, you know, beyond, you know, what the salary is. And so I went back to work and it really was supposed to be a job when I went back writing briefs and I loved it. you know, I, I fell in love with it a second time in a way that I never expected and,

I didn't realize that private practice could be more rewarding than even being at a public defender's office. And that's really, you know, I've been practicing now privately about 16, 17 years and so thankful. I went back, but went back begrudgingly initially. Went back like just because we needed the money financially and it worked out to be, you know, just an overall amazing experience on so many levels.

Peter Lederman (35:32.172)
you

Peter Lederman (35:36.606)
you

MERP (35:52.125)
Yeah.

Peter Lederman (35:52.507)
I taught eructors also, did you know that?

MERP (35:55.969)
I did not. Rutgers, New Brunswick or Rutgers? Yeah. So I taught at Delaware Law School. We have a lot in common like that. Delaware Law School Stockton and Rowan. But I have promised my staff that I will not take any teaching courses ever again.

Peter Lederman (36:17.053)
You don't need teaching courses. You know what to do when you stand in front of them. It's communication. It's passing on what you know.

MERP (36:19.25)
Bye.

MERP (36:26.202)
I know, but I taught the last year, the last two semesters in the spring and the fall, and my staff was like, you have to stop. Trying to arrange my schedule and my court appearances, they were like, you have to stop.

Peter Lederman (36:40.049)
Well, love, I don't want to call it teaching. I love presenting. You know, I love being able to, like I'm doing right now, just sort of share my thoughts and my opinions. I really enjoyed, what happened was I had graduated law school, hadn't passed the bar yet. And I had this crazy idea of being an irrational optimist. I walked into the business law, the business department at Rutgers.

just walked off the street. And she said, can I help you? said, yeah, I'd like to teach. And so the chairman, it's true, the chairman is there, the chairman of the department's here, would you like to meet him? said, sure. He comes out, he said, well, I'm going out to lunch now at the faculty club, would you like to come to lunch with me? I said, sure. So we go to lunch and I ate my lunch, he drank his lunch.

MERP (37:17.958)
That's great.

MERP (37:36.68)
Well, that might have been helpful to you.

Peter Lederman (37:37.564)
honestly, and he said, well, it could have been so I remember him saying, well, you're a nice young man. But teaching is the worst it's been since World War Two. But if something comes up, I'll give you a call. The next day I got a phone call.

Somebody quit that night. think it's somebody has there's some sort of karma going on here.

MERP (38:05.916)
The universe was liking you that day. But that's amazing and I will say...

Peter Lederman (38:10.458)
And he pulled me up and said, will you do it? I said, of course I'll do it.

MERP (38:13.394)
Yeah, so I'm going to say that that story of just walking in.

So as somebody, you know, I have kids that are looking for jobs and I just sent a text this morning and maybe it's an antiquated thought, but I just said, clicking apply on Indeed is not an active, proactive way of looking for a job. And I said, have to do more and I gave all different examples, but the idea, if I said to them, you need to walk in,

Peter Lederman (38:38.982)
You got it.

MERP (38:51.64)
And they would think I had three heads and came from a different planet talking to them. And they say to me, you don't understand. And I'm like, okay, okay. So it's a great story though. You just walked in and said, I'd like to teach.

Peter Lederman (39:10.588)
There was a, yeah, I had no teaching credentials or teaching experience. There was a guy across the street from my office. He gave me the mortgage for my first house when it was 10 and a half percent. Banks weren't lending and I just made $10,000. I mean, the whole thing was insane, but we needed a house because we were going to have a kid, the whole thing. And he gave me the money and you know.

MERP (39:23.473)
Yeah.

Peter Lederman (39:37.274)
Everything worked out well, but I remember once we had lunch with a prospective client for him and the guy said, well, I can't do, I'm using somebody else now. And we left and he said, that was great. He said, what do mean? You didn't get the client. He said, the sale begins with no, every sale begins with no. And if there's one thing that I have learned in life, then maybe a lot of the younger people haven't learned.

is to be persistent. But even more than that, to be patient. You you and I win cases because we are patient. We don't expect the prosecutor just to flip or to lie down and say, OK, I'm wrong. Here's an apology from the officer. It doesn't work like that. But you have to be willing to, and don't, grind isn't the right word, but to drill down and to drill down and to drill down until, if you keep hitting rock, keep hitting rock. And then all of sudden, you got this.

This is a great story. I mean, it says this is what we do. This is what makes you and me different. So I have seen a lot of police reports, investigation reports for DWI cases. You know what they look like. I've seen a set of reports, investigation reports from the New Jersey State Police.

MERP (40:42.856)
right.

MERP (40:57.213)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (41:07.589)
They look pretty much the same, except I've seen a subset of reports where for field sobriety testing, they list all the different scoring factors for each test. And I'm thinking to myself, why would a trooper take the time to input all that stuff? They're not typists. That's the last thing they want to do. They want to go out on the road and chase cars and do what policemen do, know, tell people what to do and stuff like that.

And then it sort of occurred to me that they were cut and pasting from somebody else's report because all this stuff was there and we're just like. So I was talking to the prosecutor. The last time I was in court, I asked for three prior reports from the same officer because I saw this form, this format, and it was going to be in a hollow order and the judge crossed it out. She didn't believe me. So I was in court today in person. I was preparing last night and I'm reading over the narrative.

MERP (41:49.885)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (42:04.442)
God damn it, he forgot to change the name at the end of the report. At the beginning of the report, was Mr. Smith, and at the end of the report, it was Mr. Jones. Now, I told the prosecutor, do you want to embarrass this trooper when he gets on the stand? Besides that, he's not credible. Well, that was because I kept looking. You you're drilled down. So the young people, and I know this, your podcast is incredibly popular with people between 19 and 25.

MERP (42:07.537)
my goodness, gold!

MERP (42:17.202)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (42:34.298)
But for those people, don't give up. Just keep drilling down and be patient. Everything doesn't come to you right away. know, everybody has this idea they're going to go to work for JPMortan. And the first year get quarter million dollars. The first year, but move up then 500, then a million, then 5, 10, 20 million. It doesn't work like that. It's a jungle. You have to fight your way through it.

MERP (43:00.007)
Yeah.

MERP (43:03.976)
also think they don't really know what they want, young kids, in the sense of, they do want money, I mean, don't we all? But I would say, I would say that the 20s, and I think this is true for every generation, the 20s are figuring out what, what...

Peter Lederman (43:04.302)
Bye.

they want money. They want money.

Peter Lederman (43:23.769)
It's only fair.

MERP (43:25.096)
what jobs excite you and what jobs don't. I mean, I say to people, try different things. If you try one and you're not happy, you're in your 20s. It's great that you know that that's not what's gonna, that's not the career that you wanna pursue or continue on. I relate a lot of things to running, so I constantly am saying like,

their twenties, it's like just the beginning of the marathon and a marathon is, you know, 26.2 and so they have to pace themselves. But, yeah, I think that, you know, that idea that you're going to get the dream job, your first job out. And I mean, I've told my kids, like when I graduated law school, I, I worked for

A professor's husband who was starting a business that was that this is going to be great when you hear it. He was a lawyer who left the practice of law and he started a digital company. And it ended up being a success, but the digital company was going to deliver case law directly to big law in the specific areas that they practice and would want. Now,

This was innovative when I graduated law school. And I was helping them set it up and build the business. part of that, and I was waiting for my bar results. wasn't even, I had graduated but not barred. And I had to make cold calls to law firms. And I did not know how much I hated a cold call.

Peter Lederman (44:53.88)
Very cool. OK.

Peter Lederman (45:01.624)
Very cool.

Peter Lederman (45:08.493)
Got it.

Peter Lederman (45:19.714)
Yes, it's horrible.

MERP (45:21.8)
But I did it, I did it for a few months and then, you know, I said, thank you so much for the experience. It's just not right for me. And by the way, I learned so much of like what I like to do and what I did not like to do, you know, and I, and, you know, I was miserable, but I said to my kids, like, they see where I am now, but they didn't see the whole journey of

Peter Lederman (45:49.88)
First.

MERP (45:50.532)
of how long it takes to become respected and recognized as an expert. you know, I know you've argued in front of the Supreme Court. I've argued in front of the Supreme Court once as well, and how that's not even normal. Most people don't even get to the Supreme Court, you know.

Peter Lederman (46:08.801)
One of the things that's really important to know, failure is okay. You're gonna fail. Everybody is going to fail at some point in time. The point is, what do do when you fail? And you keep trying. You keep trying. And if you fail, you figure out what I did wrong and then going from there. The other thing that's really cool that I really love doing is I like to work out problems.

MERP (46:22.277)
Yeah.

MERP (46:35.559)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (46:36.28)
Something that I can't discuss with you right now that I will discuss with you later, but I can't discuss it with you right now. But there's a big problem. No. No, it's something I just, it's I will talk to you about it later. I can't talk about it. No, no, I can't tell you after we stop recording, but I'll tell you the story later on. But I love trying to solve problems. You know, I try to figure things out when other people can.

MERP (46:41.989)
Because we're recording, because we're recording.

Peter Lederman (47:03.032)
figure it out, you know, they can't solve it, but everything can be solved. mean, hopefully everything can be solved. You have to try. I love the story of Apollo 13. You know, they're going to the moon and something blows up on the side of the thing. There's no repair service, no AAA that goes up there and fixes it and they go off on it. They're stuck. It's like once I drove up a mountain in, oh, where was it? It was in Europe.

MERP (47:09.447)
You

Peter Lederman (47:33.154)
There's no way off the mountain. I had to go for two hours. This tiny little road, there was no off ramp, you know, and it was a thousand feet down. It wasn't fun. I was, I had to change my clothes afterwards. It wasn't fun. But the point is, when these people are up there in this capsule and you know, there's no one to come there to, there's no exit ramp. They've got to figure it out. And the takeaway from the whole thing, you know, they did, they came back, but the takeaway was,

MERP (47:38.619)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (47:45.127)
couldn't turn around.

Peter Lederman (48:02.561)
They worked the problem. They kept working until they figured it out. And for people who are not where they want to be when they start out practicing, or for lawyers who have cases with stupid facts and how am I going to win this, how am going to help this person, work the problem. And working the problem again means patience and persistence. Very rarely do you get a report where the names are the wrong names. You know, it's, I got the guy.

MERP (48:04.529)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (48:18.351)
Mm-hmm. Yep.

MERP (48:29.153)
No, but you, yeah, but I'm going to say that's the reading of every word of every report. And that's what good lawyers, when you're really working the problem and you're going through each of the documents and that's, and that is a level of meticulousness. Is that meticulousness? That, that, you know,

Peter Lederman (48:52.256)
Yeah, yeah, I understand, Raymond.

MERP (48:56.719)
when you're really working a case and not just phoning it in. And that's, that really is what makes the difference. And that is for criminal defense attorneys in municipal court or in superior court. I had a case where my client was charged with a first degree robbery. They found a gun on him. It seemed like the facts were really, really bad. We started looking through every single body cam and it ended up that

the alleged victim, there was no robbery. He said, there was no robbery at all. He said that he was hit over the head with a bottle from someone, description didn't match my client. And I watched the video and the officer took the original statement and folded it up and put it in his pocket.

which for those who don't know is a destruction of evidence. And then had the victim rewrite the statement saying that the people went through his pockets. And it was on video and not only was it on video, we were able to stop the video and see what the original statement said. And really what happened was my client was cooperative with the police the whole time.

Peter Lederman (50:05.878)
Thank

Peter Lederman (50:09.779)
god. This is on video? No bueno.

MERP (50:25.031)
and he was brought to the police station after being searched, but you know what they didn't find on him prior to being searched? They didn't find a gun on him. And then my client was at the police station and they didn't handcuff him, which you're supposed to do. And my client was there for a good 30 minutes and then he finally said to the officers, hey, I just want you to know I have a weapon on my person.

Peter Lederman (50:33.311)
weapon.

Peter Lederman (50:42.09)
Yeah

MERP (50:54.399)
And that officer who didn't handcuff him got in trouble and reprimanded. And he was so mad. He was so mad. all of a sudden, but you know, there's hours and hours and hours of video. And if you don't go through every single video, and it was shocking. Like you would never imagine

Peter Lederman (51:01.664)
Yeah.

Peter Lederman (51:05.142)
Peter Lederman (51:18.037)
Yes?

MERP (51:23.697)
that it would occur, but not only that, it was on their body cam. and they just didn't, I don't know, did, yes, yeah, so.

Peter Lederman (51:28.8)
Yeah. You're oblivious. Yep. I've had body cam where one officer turns to the other officer and says, I didn't smell the alcohol, did you?

MERP (51:39.047)
Yeah, I can smells alcohol emanating of alcohol because it's the same. Yeah. So, all right. I'm going to ask you some DWI questions right now. Okay. First one is about state versus chun.

Peter Lederman (51:41.301)
And in the report, he says he's, know, reeking of alcohol. Oh, yeah. 20 feet away from the car. Yeah, it's like hit by a

Peter Lederman (51:55.625)
Don't let me digress, whatever you do. Because I don't like to, you know, don't let me digress.

MERP (51:59.929)
No, I'm, I'm going to just focus on DWI for like five minutes and then we'll go back. Okay. State first, John, did you have any idea the impact that that case and decision would have on DWI law while you were preparing, litigating, handling that matter? Cause you would agree it, it, it became like, you know, a landmark decision for DWI law.

Peter Lederman (52:03.249)
Alright, but don't let me digress. Do not let me digress.

Peter Lederman (52:27.199)
really interesting is Chen was done twice. Did you know that? Foley was the first time and the state never appealed it, so it never got to a statewide court. Yeah, I mean...

MERP (52:29.978)
Mm-hmm. Yes, I did.

Peter Lederman (52:41.813)
It was important because it was a new breath test machine, sure. So these cases are very fact sensitive and there's a lot of detail and the hearing went on for substantial pre-event. So you get sort of involved in that stuff. you don't think about that.

MERP (53:00.934)
So, you know, Chun was about the last ALCA test machine and we now have a new ALCA test machine, a 9510. And there's been some weird, weird issues that have come up at the end of 2025 with...

Peter Lederman (53:10.547)
We do. We do.

MERP (53:23.262)
beginning of 2026 because there was as you know a case going through the system Cunningham that was challenging the 9510.

Peter Lederman (53:32.627)
Yes.

MERP (53:37.807)
I actually know that that case is dismissed, but I just heard recently that it might be resurrected like the Phoenix. Somebody said that in court and I was like, I don't think so. It was dismissed. know, so what do you think about what's going to happen with the new Alcatest machine, the 9510? Do you think everyone's going to just challenge it individually? It'll be a race of who

Peter Lederman (53:46.077)
I you that.

Peter Lederman (53:55.367)
Next question.

MERP (54:07.598)
ends up having it.

Peter Lederman (54:11.848)
I think there's a, and this is timely. So when somebody sees this a month later, it won't make any difference or probably won't, right? I think maybe cooler heads will prevail and the process that was begun before will start up again and resolve and go to a conclusion. That's my expectation.

MERP (54:40.166)
Do you think people should be litigating the 9510 regarding whether it's scientifically reliable at this point?

Peter Lederman (54:48.148)
Absolutely. It's essential. It's a new scientific device. It's a box with stuff in it. You like my scientific description of it? It's a box with stuff in it. Listen, you buy a box of cookies, you don't really know what's inside of it. So, or ask Bob Kennedy what's inside of it. He'll tell you. yeah, yeah. And you know, get a computer, know, chips and all that stuff, programming. It's, who knows what.

MERP (55:07.14)
Isn't that what the ingredient list is for?

Peter Lederman (55:17.779)
What was the question?

MERP (55:20.75)
I said, you think that every 95-10 should be challenged regarding the reliability of it?

Peter Lederman (55:27.111)
So there are different ways I could answer that question if it pleases the court. Yes, it should be challenged because, there's no way of knowing whether this thing, and I'm not going to be overly critical or try to over, what's the right word, overstate the obvious. It's got to be shown that it stands on its own, like I

MERP (55:52.048)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (55:55.867)
scientifically reliable that it can be relied upon to provide evidence of guilt. Evidence of guilt. I mean, if the box says, wait, you're guilty, right? As long as the test is administered correctly. But should people challenge it? Yes, of course. You can't accept it. I would say it's malpractice. Now, if you get an offer where the test results are going to be thrown out, where the court wants to move the calendar,

MERP (56:01.54)
accurate readings.

Peter Lederman (56:25.736)
and your client has a two five, well, it might be smart. Excuse me, it might be smart to take that because you know, when push comes to shove, will be some, the device will be found to be scientifically reliable, subject to Supreme Court tweaking, I think so. And so you might end up with that two five and you don't want to end up with that two five. So it's not a bad idea to.

take advantage of the opportunity to get rid of the breath test result, which is what we try to do anyway when we're hired, right? We try to get rid of breath test results. This is almost the gift. So...

MERP (57:03.888)
Right? It is a gift because it saves our clients money too because they don't necessarily have to hire an expert to get the out.

Peter Lederman (57:12.179)
I don't believe in experts. I'm not an expert guy. that's a lot of, I was going to use a, something that I shouldn't say. Ask me about experts next, but let me finish my question, my answer to this. I feel strongly about experts, but I'll tell you what the story is. Now, so you have to challenge it, but there's another side to the coin. So there's a directive from the state, attorney general's office, that they want people who have

MERP (57:18.436)
Like mumbo jumbo?

Peter Lederman (57:41.297)
challenged the device to be selected to be the new Cunninghams. Now, I challenged this in Monmouth County. I was one of the Cunningham defendants, attorneys. Not the defendant, the attorneys. the Supreme Court, thank you. Thank you, counselor. So you can represent me anytime. I'll be very comfortable with your representation. The story is that for some reason, they only wanted one defendant.

MERP (57:55.556)
the attorney for the defendant.

Peter Lederman (58:10.586)
One private defendant. It was Cunningham. The rest of us were cast aside. Fine. I was asked a month ago whether I wanted to get back in the case. And I said, no, thank you. I'm not going to jump in the middle of it.

MERP (58:26.351)
Maybe that's what I heard. Maybe that's what somebody was trying to convey to me.

Peter Lederman (58:29.253)
Well, so.

All right, so if you do challenge it, you may be sucked into the next Cunningham case. But again, my thought, and I think I'm right about this, although this is all I think I should say about it, I think the old Cunningham case will be back on tracks in moving forward again. It's the only reasonable, logical approach to getting this thing done.

starting over again is illogical. It'll be another couple years. It doesn't make sense.

MERP (59:07.109)
And why would they want that when everyone's so concerned about backlog? And yeah.

Peter Lederman (59:11.205)
What else can they do?

What are their options? are the alternatives? What else can they do?

MERP (59:18.533)
So, all right, few more DWI cases. So people that are not DWI experts are gonna be like, what are they talking about on the 9510? Oh, yeah, so.

Peter Lederman (59:25.939)
let's talk about experts. Let's talk about experts. No bueno. No. Some cases, I mean, when people ask me if I have an expert report, say, no. Why not? Because I don't need an expert report.

MERP (59:41.881)
You say I'm the expert.

Peter Lederman (59:43.602)
They say that sometimes and it's embarrassing. I don't like them to say that. The truth of the matter is you don't need an expert to say that a field sobriety test is not administered correctly. You don't. Oh, they always do. Believe me, I can't get in bed because they sleep where my body is supposed to go. I'll repeat what I just said so Tom can have something to do. Wake up, Tom. Wake up. So field sobriety test is not brain surgery.

MERP (59:53.263)
I love that your dogs are taking over this podcast.

MERP (59:59.952)
Right, right.

Yeah

MERP (01:00:11.077)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (01:00:12.305)
You look at the test, you know what the scoring factors are. You didn't instruct it correctly. Do I need to pay somebody $500, $600, $700, $1,500 to come to court and say, oh, you didn't do it right? Yeah, the way I...

MERP (01:00:23.663)
Some, the experts now are not even asking for the 5,600 for the report. They're asking for a thousand or more. And I'm...

Peter Lederman (01:00:30.225)
Well, it's stupid. It's for people who don't know what they're doing. And I say that respectfully. But the truth of the matter is, most of time they don't like to get on the stand. And any expert you get on the stand, a good prosecutor can tie him into a knot. Oh, you used to be an officer. You used to be a trooper. You would have arrested this guy, wouldn't you?

MERP (01:00:33.527)
Yeah, and I also say, yeah.

MERP (01:00:54.789)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (01:00:56.891)
Save the money. I don't think you get the bang for the buck. I don't believe that. I don't believe that.

MERP (01:01:01.783)
Right. So I'm going to tell you that, now that plea bargaining is acceptable on DWI's, which it depends

Peter Lederman (01:01:13.195)
Legally, it's acceptable. Some judges still don't believe in it.

MERP (01:01:16.077)
Right, some judges and some prosecutors don't. I'm going to like, this is my nerdiness of saying prior to 2024 plea bargaining was not allowed in DWI cases at all. In 2024, it is now allowed. Some courts still don't allow it. But prior to the plea bargaining, I had many prosecutors that would not accept throwing out a reading if it wasn't something

Peter Lederman (01:01:18.917)
Yeah.

MERP (01:01:45.871)
blatantly obvious to them. And they felt like they needed the expert report in order to justify throwing out the reading.

Peter Lederman (01:01:56.175)
Fair, no, it's fair, that's fair. So I would say 90 % of the time, the breath test results are gonna go out because of 20 minutes, right? Somebody steps out of the room, you watch, you have the end station video, he's there, and the last minute he walks out of the room, I'm like, do I need an expert to say that? It's on the video, I can take a picture off my screen and show the guy walking out the door, my guy sitting there by himself, why do I need an expert for it? By the way,

MERP (01:02:05.327)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (01:02:13.935)
Right.

MERP (01:02:18.669)
Right.

Peter Lederman (01:02:25.887)
I don't think the plea bargain change the rule has made any difference because in the past, the prosecutor always had an ethical obligation, and you know this, not to prosecute when they couldn't prove their case. that's what I would argue. It wasn't a plea bargain. You just can't prove your case. And they go, yeah, you're right. So.

Peter Lederman (01:02:48.946)
The plea bargaining, the level, the oversight and all that stuff, oh, you're a plea bargain. It comes and goes. There are different times and different judges go crazy about it. But I don't think it's the... It shouldn't have been the issue that it was. But anyway, it's not a problem.

MERP (01:03:05.221)
I really never understood why if I could negotiate and plea bargain homicides that DWIs were precluded, you know? You know?

Peter Lederman (01:03:13.807)
You may get jury trials too, right? For third offenses and the client goes to jail. Our clients are presumed guilty until proven innocent. Also, I've heard some people argue.

MERP (01:03:23.139)
Well, I think that that's a feeling that a lot of people have not just in DWI, but my clients that have been detained and haven't been found guilty of anything for an exorbitant amount of time would say that they have been presumed guilty, wow. So those were like my major DWI ask. mean,

Peter Lederman (01:03:39.928)
I agree.

MERP (01:03:51.501)
I did have the plea bargaining asked, but you kind of answered it in the expert report, expert conversation, which is...

Peter Lederman (01:03:59.811)
Let me footnote that if a prosecutor says, I'll do it if you get me a report, I'll get you a

MERP (01:04:06.755)
Riot? I mean...

Peter Lederman (01:04:08.025)
But I'm not going to get the report beforehand and just, you know, and by the way, we talked about cut and pasting. Those reports are cut and pasted, please. Sure.

MERP (01:04:17.423)
They are, they are so much. But I would say to you, if an attorney sent a report with the wrong name on it, that's the attorney's fault because the attorney should be reading that expert report before they send it out and checking to make sure, you know. And my staff has said to me, are we sending the report? And I'll say, nope, I haven't reviewed it yet. I just need to make sure, you know. So.

Peter Lederman (01:04:26.871)
Yeah, I agree.

Peter Lederman (01:04:41.879)
Yeah, for sure. Yes. Now, there is one sort of report that I think is really important in DWI cases. So I try to explain to my clients my viewpoint that this is all about persuasion and they're... This is something, by the way, we might talk about at a presentation sometime in the future. But if you know what I'm talking about. Yes. But I tell my clients there are different things that are persuasive.

MERP (01:05:02.981)
Great. It's on my calendar. It's on my calendar.

Peter Lederman (01:05:11.506)
For example, I ask them to give me a statement about themselves so I can tell the prosecutor about them and that the prosecutor might say, I like this person, I want to help this person. mean, just like, yeah, I see this person made a mistake, he's had a good life, the whole thing. But one thing that report is really important is I ask all of my clients, no matter what the level of the violation of the offense is, to go for alcohol evaluation and counseling, every single one. And I tell them, there are four reasons to do it. One is it's the purpose of the exercise. You don't want to

MERP (01:05:34.213)
Okay.

Peter Lederman (01:05:41.87)
If you find that this was because something was wrong, figure out what's wrong so it doesn't happen again. Do that course correction that you need. Number two, your family, people that love you are going to be very upset knowing that you're going for the help makes things better to some degree. Yeah. Number three, I once got an email from a guy who said he was a member of Mothers Against Drunk Driving. He saw my website and he went,

MERP (01:05:47.887)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (01:05:58.255)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (01:06:09.986)
How can you do that? How can you sleep at night? And I sent him an email back immediately and I said, I sent every one of my clients for evaluation and counseling. What do you do? And I never heard back from the guy. So it's my due diligence. I'm helping a lot of people stay on the road and I want to sleep well at night. I don't want to cut loose people that are going to cause mayhem on the highways. And then there's the fourth reason. When I tell my clients, besides hiring an excellent lawyer, a great lawyer, the most important thing you can do

MERP (01:06:19.609)
Right.

Peter Lederman (01:06:40.417)
to succeed in a DWI case is to go through this evaluation and counseling process because it shows you have character. More than that, it shows the judge they can trust you.

If they agree with you that the state can't prove its case, they don't have to worry that maybe their career is on the line if you kill somebody a month later. And it's the headline on the newspaper. It's the right thing to do. I have one case because I get a report from my counselor. And the trooper said, no. And I said, take a look at this. And the trooper said, OK.

MERP (01:07:00.729)
Yeah.

MERP (01:07:14.902)
Right, so it's funny that you say that, because I do the alcohol evaluation for my client and tell them to do that, but I only do that if the BAC is over a certain level. But I like the fact that you do it for everyone. Okay, this is my...

Peter Lederman (01:07:17.537)
That's what a report is a report.

Peter Lederman (01:07:30.049)
I do it for everybody. Yeah.

I let the alcohol counselor do the evaluation, yeah? And decide whether, because there could be something there, could be mixed alcohol, or the person might really want help, even though they're just a .09 or something, because they do this every night or whatever, I'm sorry.

MERP (01:07:37.72)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (01:07:49.283)
Right, yeah. No, so my last DWI question is this. This might be a little technical, but I always go back and forth on this one. Client is charged with a refusal and a DWI.

Peter Lederman (01:07:54.678)
Okay.

MERP (01:08:11.424)
you are able to resolve it with either the refusal to submit to the breath test or the DWI. I'm going to add they are US citizens because if they're not US citizens, the answer is really easy of which of the two to do. And for those who want to know, the answer is the refusal to submit to the DWI. But

Peter Lederman (01:08:28.778)
Great. Great.

Peter Lederman (01:08:36.222)
Or CDL driver, if you're CDL driver, it doesn't make a difference, right?

MERP (01:08:39.702)
Right. So my question to you is because the penalties are less for a DWI initially than the refusal. What do you do? Which, which do you recommend for your client or do you give them or do you give them the option of the two penalties and explain the pros and cons of both, which I also always do as well anyway, but you know,

Peter Lederman (01:08:55.924)
Well then.

Peter Lederman (01:09:07.286)
Some people believe that refusal doesn't look as bad. mean, a lot of people are afraid that when someone does a background search for their next job, this will look bad and it will be, you know, hurt their ability to get the job that they want to get. But they think that refusal doesn't look as bad. It's not as toxic as the DWI. But it depends on the facts. and it's really hard to tell, but if you think your client is going to do this again,

MERP (01:09:33.996)
Yeah, you have to do the refusal. It's a no-brainer.

Peter Lederman (01:09:36.415)
Sure. Yes. And if you think, and by the way, you're paying for the interlock device. there's the fines are, you know, it's not as, it's a little less expensive as far as the statutory fines and surcharges, but you pay more for the interlock device. Yeah. If you think you're guys, you know, just gonna do it again, then yeah, that's what I would do.

MERP (01:10:01.304)
So do you think it's a case by case? Because I think I vacillate on it on almost every case with the clients.

Peter Lederman (01:10:08.682)
Yes. So, so what I do is I tell the client, will evaluate the discovery together. So I send them all the stuff. Then I'll have a conference and I'm doing everything virtually now, including the conference with the client to review the discovery. It works really well. I went out of my way before to make sure everything was in person, but I don't anymore. And it works.

MERP (01:10:20.58)
Mm-hmm

MERP (01:10:29.314)
right because you can share the discovery and go through it and highlight it on the screen if you're sophisticated on Zoom and able to do that. But here's the other thing, my clients are, a lot of them are tourists that came to Atlantic City or this area because they were visiting the shore. yeah, I do a lot of it by Zoom as well, preferred.

Peter Lederman (01:10:37.867)
Yes.

Stop now.

Peter Lederman (01:10:57.814)
Not too many Canadians anymore, huh?

MERP (01:11:00.866)
Nope.

Peter Lederman (01:11:04.128)
No, why not?

MERP (01:11:04.312)
Nope. Yeah. So, alright. So, thank you for letting me pick your brain on DWI. Are you okay? Did I hurt you?

Peter Lederman (01:11:16.089)
It hurt. No, my brain is, yes, it's sore from being picked. But that's okay. It grows back.

MERP (01:11:20.736)
All right, so I'm going to ask you, I'm going to finish with some advice you'd give younger lawyers considering municipal court DWI defense or even becoming a lawyer. You said only go to law school if you think you're going to love it, which is great advice.

Peter Lederman (01:11:36.862)
How do you know when you're 18 years old? mean, the real shame is the punitive cost of going to law school.

MERP (01:11:46.052)
Right, well you don't decide that at 18, it's usually 21, 22, right?

Peter Lederman (01:11:50.17)
I know, but still it's incredibly expensive. It's an amazing commitment when you have nothing to start with. You don't know what you're going to have available. It's scary and it's too bad. What advice would I give young people? I told you what I told my daughter. so this is a great story. So she calls me up and says, daddy, I think I want to go to law school. And I said, well, don't do it unless you love it. And she says, what do want me to do? And this is a kid who never asked me what.

I thought she should do. I'm very independent. When she applied to college, she didn't ask me what I thought about that college. She just applied to the college. So by the way, she's doing great. We're very close. Everything's terrific. here's my story. So she gets a job with a firm in New York City. She was living in New York. She went to school in New York. She gets a job as a paralegal in a law firm that resolve disputes between financial institutions.

MERP (01:12:25.239)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (01:12:31.277)
But is she a lawyer?

MERP (01:12:47.939)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (01:12:48.075)
So they do a trade or something and it went, it didn't go right. So they would, you know, represent parties to resolve the disputes. And two months later, she calls me up and says, daddy, I have a problem. And this young lady was very certain about everything and she doesn't sound too good. She sounds like she's really shaken. I said, what's the problem? She said, well, my partner just called me in. One of the firm's clients was asked by a big client to lend an attorney.

because somebody had just left the bank and they need somebody to cover until they hired somebody full time. Do you take any tax law in law school? remember? Remember what life I was?

MERP (01:13:26.243)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (01:13:31.232)
Well, we had to take a tax class and shockingly enough, I think I got the highest grade in my tax class.

Peter Lederman (01:13:38.6)
I did well in taxes, I mean I've memorized this stuff but.

MERP (01:13:41.033)
Right, because I think it's just following a lot of rules, but if you ask me anything about taxes now, I mean, my accountant would laugh if I told her that I got the highest grade in tax.

Peter Lederman (01:13:44.383)
Yes.

All right. Yes. Leifah was last in, first out. She was the last one in for inventory, for determining the cost of inventory, the value. So she was the last one in, she's the first one out. So they send her over to somebody else. So, well, Gwen, what's the promise? The daddy, it's not a legal job. She had this idea she was going to work at the firm, she's going to get relationships, they're going to recommend her to a great law school, she's going to get this whole thing in her head.

It's the way she thinks, she's very...

MERP (01:14:19.351)
linear and practical.

Peter Lederman (01:14:19.658)
Step, yeah, very, very, yes. Yes. So I said, who's the employer? She said, Morgan Stanley. I said, it'll look fine on your resume. Don't worry. Two months later, she gets hired full time. A year later, she's living in Shanghai, opening up a financial exchange office. While she was at Morgan Stanley, she meets her husband. She comes back, gets her graduate degree, master's degree in business administration, her MBA.

and never look back. door opens and door closes, door opens, door closes. Just keep going and going and going. it's just a, you know, I want to tell you one more story. I know we're coming to the end. This sort of puts it all together. You never know what's going to help you or what's going to hurt you in life. You want to be able to take advantage of the things that come your way. So here I am building up a practice in DWL Law. And I was getting pretty well known in central Jersey.

MERP (01:14:50.723)
There you go.

Peter Lederman (01:15:19.881)
I was in Middlesex, was doing Mama's Somerset, know, pretty much that quarter, a lot of courts, a lot of cases. One day I had a case where my client fell asleep. He was a tech guy and he was going back and forth to these companies fixing their computers.

And he's in Piscataway and he goes to this bar restaurant and he's traveling around, he's by himself. You've been on the road, it's lonely. I've gone on business trips, sounds cool, somebody's paying you to go hotel and pay for dinner, it's lonely. It's lonely. So he goes to his bar and he comes out to his car and he says to himself, I shouldn't be driving, I'm drunk.

MERP (01:16:06.403)
You

Peter Lederman (01:16:07.997)
the middle of the winter, turns the motor on, turns the heater on, reclines the seat, goes to sleep. Well, the Supreme Court said that's not dry, that's not operation, that's all good. We wanted a case that was dismissed, but before the hearing, he said, we'd never hear him, we just resolved it, but before we go to court, he says, I have these two friends, I'd like you to meet them, these two guys. I say hello, he said, I said, what do do? He said, we build websites.

I said, what are websites?

Peter Lederman (01:16:42.172)
He said, you want a website? said, no, no, website. All of sudden, I was getting clients from all over the state of New Jersey and people who had money because they had computers, because they were technical. And it just changed my world. I went from being a local guy, a regional guy, to a state worker guy. And it was all fortuitous. I was in the right place at the right time.

MERP (01:16:44.172)
Yeah.

MERP (01:17:03.405)
to it, yeah.

MERP (01:17:10.187)
or you had the right client, you know what's amazing is that, you're, right, but you're telling the story of the client sleeping in the car outside the bar, which is like, you know, also a landmark case of the difference between, you know, sleeping in the car with the engine on and why in a parking lot of the bar, it's not driving. And when you're sleeping it off on the parkway,

Peter Lederman (01:17:13.266)
But it just fortuitous, you know, there's no answer to that. just happened.

Peter Lederman (01:17:26.567)
Yeah.

MERP (01:17:39.691)
Right? You know, but yeah, so you just dropped a landmark case and then at the same, so you did that and then you're like, and then he introduced me to two people and mentioned the World Wide Web and I had no idea what that was about, you know?

Peter Lederman (01:17:39.772)
Well, that's a different type of operation.

Peter Lederman (01:17:58.418)
I had no idea, heard, I mean, I had heard of it, you know, I don't, I'm not technologically forward.

MERP (01:18:05.598)
Mm-hmm, but you're not a Luddite. You're clearly not a Luddite.

Peter Lederman (01:18:07.132)
I'm glad I was able. I'm not a of I am not a lot. I may be a letterman. I've been not a lot. I but here we got this thing going. That was good. Right. I didn't need an IT guy to get me going or an IT gal. But it was just happened. You know, it was just it was like, you know, meeting the right person to spend your life with or becoming the prosecutor or it's crazy.

MERP (01:18:12.802)
MERP (01:18:28.162)
It's a really good example of like one business decision really can change the trajectory. And I'm going to say, this might sound silly, but when I was creating my website, this pink, you know, that you see everywhere, it generated. when I was creating it and I was...

Peter Lederman (01:18:44.443)
That's gained my attention.

Peter Lederman (01:18:52.935)
got to ask you question though. What were you thinking about? You've got these criminal defense, and I say that respectfully, you've got these people who are robbing banks and stealing things and doing drugs and they go to the site and there's a little pink sort of flowery thing. What's the logic there besides, you I get the domestic, the DV stuff, I get that, I said, my God, well, what is it?

MERP (01:19:09.218)
So, so of course all my clients are not guilty.

MERP (01:19:17.986)
I'll tell you what it is, is that this pink, this powerful pink, this strong pink color was generated. And I thought about it for about 24 to 48 hours before I really decided to go with it and create my logo. it's a single decision. And it was, I am a woman owned, woman run law firm and every most criminal defense law firms, how many?

Peter Lederman (01:19:24.263)
Yeah.

MERP (01:19:46.657)
honestly, certified criminal trial attorneys, do you know that are private women owned, like women run law firms in the state? Yeah. And so all the logos I've seen of most attorneys are blue, dark gray, Navy, black, right? Maybe, maybe orange and, and

Peter Lederman (01:19:56.474)
No, I understand, man, I understand.

Peter Lederman (01:20:08.728)
It works. It works. I just wondered what the thinking was, knowing that these people are not gentle, aesthetic-oriented.

MERP (01:20:17.91)
I really wanted it to be noticeable, memorable, easily identifiable. And it started with just a logo. I can show you the original logo. original, it wasn't just the So at the time, my full name was Melissa Rosenblum-Pasetzner, and my middle name is Elaine.

Peter Lederman (01:20:21.104)
gardening people.

Peter Lederman (01:20:35.835)
The

MERP (01:20:45.858)
which is what Merp comes from. and that was my original logo and...

Peter Lederman (01:20:48.23)
Okay.

Peter Lederman (01:20:53.198)
At first I thought I was dealing with a large pharmaceutical company.

MERP (01:20:58.538)
Is it Merp? It's not Merp. It's Merk, yeah, yeah, yeah. So it generated and then I like, you know, I had like started giving out these pink pens and every once in a while I would wear pink and it like, it within six months blew up as a brand. I mean, it was, you know, people would see pink pens at the bars or at,

Peter Lederman (01:20:59.878)
It's Merck. No, I got confused. It's Merck, yeah.

Peter Lederman (01:21:18.405)
Cool.

MERP (01:21:25.216)
the dry cleaners and they would take pictures of it. And the truth is, if I go to court now and I am not wearing something easily and quickly identifiable as pink, it's the first thing people say, wait, what? No pink? Where's the pink? And when I walk out of court and someone says, can I have your business card? Or if somebody calls me, they say, I saw you in court, you were wearing the pink.

blah, blah. It's like, it's been amazing. It's amazing how like that one little decision, like, you know, created this whole brand that makes like, makes people be able to identify me really easily.

Peter Lederman (01:22:09.423)
There's a retired corporate guy who's involved with marketing for big companies. And I was asking him about marketing, helping us with marketing with our law firm. And I said, Charlie, what's the secret? I never forgot what he said. Point of differentiation. Point of differentiation. And that's what you do when you brand yourself with the pink. You're different. You're unique. And it's you. You know, it's not.

MERP (01:22:22.423)
Mm-hmm.

Peter Lederman (01:22:39.525)
anybody else and if you're just not part of the herd, you're way out there somewhere.

MERP (01:22:43.788)
Correct, but I...

But I tell people that if they're going to do something that's a little out of the box, it's got to be authentic to them. You can't, you know, and, and it is, I like pink as you can see by my nails. I look a little sparkly, but I like, I also am, you know, a fighter and powerful and people see all of that together of like not, being, you know, a wallflower, which you can't do in court, you know.

Peter Lederman (01:22:58.991)
Bye.

Okay.

Peter Lederman (01:23:11.246)
I understand now. Okay. All right. I'm satisfied.

MERP (01:23:15.49)
Whew.

Peter Lederman (01:23:17.487)
Not pink,

MERP (01:23:20.224)
So, yeah.

Peter Lederman (01:23:20.293)
Helicose, I don't know if this is magenta, is that what it is?

MERP (01:23:24.998)
I can't, I can't see you have to. Yeah, there. Yeah, it is magenta. It is magenta. Yeah. Well, you know, if I if I will you away from Lamar law at all, you know, yet sometimes you're required to wear pink at my office just to let you know.

Peter Lederman (01:23:27.813)
forgot where the thing is. It's Hentai. Yeah, I like colors. Keeps me awake.

Peter Lederman (01:23:39.493)
Peter Lederman (01:23:43.607)
All right. OK. No fingernails, though. I'm not going to do the fingernails. OK, good. Fine.

MERP (01:23:46.684)
No, no, that's not required. No, that would be wrong. So let me just say thank you so much for coming on Mighty Merp and we'll do this again because this was a great conversation and I think, no.

Peter Lederman (01:23:56.005)
Thank you so much.

Peter Lederman (01:24:01.221)
I just have one complaint, one problem. Yes, it went too fast.

MERP (01:24:06.626)
well you'll be back. You'll be back and I'll see you in February.

All right, thank you.

Peter Lederman (01:24:15.555)
Bye, Bobbist. Thanks a lot. It was fun. Have a great weekend.

MERP (01:24:23.454)
Alright, so we're good.

MERP (01:24:29.471)
Is Peter loaded?

Peter Lederman (01:24:36.719)
I still hear you. Can you hear me? Yeah, hi.

MERP (01:24:39.114)
He dipped out.

Peter Lederman (01:24:42.085)
I'm still here.