Mental Health Court In NJ

MERP (00:00)
Great.

Today on the Mighty MERP Podcast, we're taking a deep and necessary look at the intersection of mental health and the criminal justice system. Not in just theory, but in practice. I'm honored to be joined by two women who are amazing with significant real world criminal law experience from both sides of the courtroom. Meg McCormick Horner, sorry Meg, I should be able to pronounce your name.

Meg Hoerner (00:20)
Yeah.

MERP (00:31)
Meg McCormick Horner is a certified criminal trial attorney, professor at Wilmington University, and a seasoned criminal practitioner, both as a prosecutor as well as a defense attorney. Her perspective is uniquely informed by having served as a former district attorney of Philadelphia, a former prosecutor in Cape May County, and a former solo criminal defense practitioner in Atlanta County. And today she also teaches on mental health in the law.

giving her a comprehensive view of how these issues play out both in the courtroom and in legal education. I'm also joined by Gretchen Pickering, who is the Deputy First Assistant Prosecutor of the Cape May County Prosecutor's Office. She's been with the office for 12 years and brings extensive experience handling serious criminal matters and shaping prosecutorial responses to cases. She is also the lead in starting

Meg Hoerner (01:04)
.

MERP (01:29)
a program with the Cape May County Prosecutor's Office based on a grant that was recently received, and we'll be starting a mental health diversionary program in that court. Today, we'll be discussing the reality of mental health issues faced by defendants who are criminally charged, the purpose and operation of mental health diversionary courts, and really why addressing mental health within the criminal justice system is essential.

I would say to rehabilitation as well as public safety and reducing recidivism.

Welcome ladies, I'm really excited to have this conversation.

Meg Hoerner (02:10)
Thanks

Gretchen Pickering (02:10)
Thank you.

MERP (02:13)
So all three of us have been involved as lawyers and

in the criminal practice for a long time. ⁓ So I would want to ask, ⁓ how do you think our information and knowledge about mental health and ⁓ prosecuting and defendants has been shaped over the years? Because ⁓ where we are today is significantly different than how we addressed mental health issues previously.

Meg, do you want to jump in on that first?

Meg Hoerner (02:45)
Sure,

mean, I was, as you said, I was a prosecutor for a long time. I was actually down in Cape May County ⁓ for about 14 years. I had spent about four years prior to that ⁓ in other counties as a prosecutor. So I was a prosecutor for 18 years before going into ⁓ criminal defense work for about five years.

You know, one thing I was thinking about as I was preparing for today was just what you said, how the perspective has changed in that timeframe. ⁓ You know, as you mentioned, I'm now teaching a graduate level course for Wilmington University in mental health and the law. And it maybe goes without saying, but when you really break it down, aspects of mental health touch upon every single area of the criminal

practice from before the crime is even committed to why the crime is committed to how law enforcement ⁓ react and ⁓ address individuals that they're interacting with. ⁓ Issues of Miranda, issues of how prosecutors look at it, defense attorneys look at it. And, you know, it's more than just the prosecutor's viewpoint versus the defense attorney's viewpoint.

There's this other piece to the puzzle and that is focusing on why someone may have committed a crime. Certainly our laws is set up to excuse certain offenses and justify certain defenses, but it's not a free pass. unless we understand the why, we can't work on how to reduce and really solve the problem so it doesn't happen again.

It's not just a matter of getting the best deal you can get when you're a defense attorney. And it's not just a matter of getting a conviction if you're a prosecutor. So to answer your question, I'm thrilled to hear that Cape May County now has this ⁓ grant that they're able to start this program. I'm really excited to hear Gretchen and Gretchen, nice to see you. I haven't seen you in a while. ⁓ To talk about it, I know it's a pilot program in other counties, but I remember

Gretchen Pickering (04:55)
Yeah.

Meg Hoerner (05:03)
And I don't know if this is the case now, but I remember when someone would be rejected from recovery court due to a dual diagnosis. And what person that has a severe drug dependency does not also have co-occurring mental health issues? I'm not a mental health expert, but you see it everywhere.

MERP (05:20)
Correct. But, but that,

yeah, but that's a really good issue. I know we're already off and running, but 10 years ago, you couldn't have a dual diagnosis. Maybe, maybe it's 15, 10 years, 2016, maybe, but I know before 2015, 2014, you couldn't have a dual diagnosis. And it really, it goes, yeah. Right. But,

Meg Hoerner (05:44)
Right, and get into recovery court. That's what I remember. that, I think that may have changed now, but that shows

one aspect of how it's changed. And law enforcement's response too, right? In this graduate program that I'm teaching, it's a lot of ⁓ law enforcement officers who take this master's level ⁓ program that Wilmington University offers. And just having, and I'm sure Gretchen can speak to this, but the response of law enforcement when interacting with someone who has a mental health

issue or mental health crisis, that has changed drastically. So we could talk about that for a long time. The important piece to the puzzle is to recognize that it's more than just about solving the actual case at hand. It's about recognizing it's a bigger issue.

MERP (06:18)
Right.

Right, and so, yeah,

so, and I asked the question of how far we've come because the example you used about recovery court is a really good example, Meg, which is ⁓ you couldn't have a dual diagnosis. And for those individuals listening, that meant you couldn't have a drug addiction and a mental health diagnosis and get into recovery court. And it has only been, I would say, in the last,

10 years less than that, maybe even eight years that we have acknowledged and recognized that most people that have substance abuse issues usually have a mental health issue. And so it's a change of where we were over 10 years ago or 15 years ago. And I think that's part of the realization that there's a strong connection between people involved in the criminal justice system overall.

Meg Hoerner (06:56)
you you

MERP (07:25)
with mental health diagnosis. So Gretchen, I'm gonna ask you really, ⁓ I'm gonna just start with a very easy, if we know the number of cases or percentage wise about ⁓ the connection between those involved in the criminal justice system and a mental health component.

Meg Hoerner (07:28)
.

Gretchen Pickering (07:50)
I don't have statistics on that exactly. I do know that there have been a lot of changes and a pretty strong recognition that mental health issues are issues that have to get dealt with at all levels of the criminal justice system. for example, we have a, we have CIT programs that help teach some of our first responders, police officers, and other people in our offices, teach them how to

Meg Hoerner (08:00)
So, thank

Gretchen Pickering (08:19)
approach situations

where you have someone who might be experiencing a mental health crisis or might have mental health issues. ⁓ So that recognition is different from what was around 10 years ago. Now, we also have ⁓ an ARRIVE program ⁓ in Cape May County, and I know other counties have that as well, where you have someone with a mental health professional essentially, and I use that term somewhat loosely, but a mental health professional available to

follow up if it is determined that there is something going on or there's a mental health crisis that's happening with in connection with some of the phone call to ⁓ emergency management, say, for example, for response. So those kind of programs have kind of increased based on understanding of the, I'm not even sure nexus is the right word. It's almost a spider web, if you will, of the intertwining.

Meg Hoerner (08:53)
.

Gretchen Pickering (09:14)
of the mental health issues and the kernel justice system in lot of respects. And it ties in with recovery court as well. And I think a lot of it develops from things that people have learned through the years that court has been available to people and how to approach things differently as a result of what we've learned through those years. So I think that it's all kind of evolved to a sense where the need for this program or for mental health ⁓

Meg Hoerner (09:22)
Okay. .

Gretchen Pickering (09:43)
an understanding of mental health

is very important in addressing certain individuals who are involved in the criminal justice system and how it goes forward. And that's what the program is designed to do. certainly, no one wants to put someone in jail who's suffering from a mental health episode. ⁓ So I think the goal is to try and get people involved who are having those situations into some kind of treatment and away from the criminal justice system, which has a more black and white view of things.

Meg Hoerner (09:48)
you you

MERP (10:15)
Right. So there are other states that have pretty robust mental health diversionary programs already. I know New York does, ⁓ and I've had clients participate in that successfully. ⁓ I know New Jersey has tried to, or has had pilot programs, but it's not in all the counties. So Kate May is ⁓ establishing a mental health diversionary program at this time. Gretchen, could you talk about how

Meg Hoerner (10:20)
.

MERP (10:45)
⁓ I guess the impetus of that or how that came to fruition.

Gretchen Pickering (10:50)
Sure. ⁓ As you did mention that there have been, there was a pilot program in place that came through the AOC. That was several years ago. I think there were four counties that ⁓ got grants through the AOC to start a pilot program. I believe Camden was one, Middlesex, I'm not sure of all of them. And this is not part of that program. But what happened, I think in the course of things, Atlantic County, and there was, I guess, a general

Meg Hoerner (10:50)
.

Gretchen Pickering (11:20)
recognition of the need to move in a direction to address mental health issues in the courtrooms ⁓ that couldn't be addressed through the VDP program, excuse me, the Veterans Diversion Program, where these things do get addressed ⁓ and also with the Recovery Court. So ⁓ in talking with our other people in our vicinage with Atlantic County, they have had

Meg Hoerner (11:44)
So,

Gretchen Pickering (11:45)
a program that was not developed as part of that original AOC

Meg Hoerner (11:49)
.

Gretchen Pickering (11:50)
⁓ program or pilot program. They developed it on their own with the courts and it was essentially from what I understand of the program it was just people trying to figure out a way to develop a program that would address a need. ⁓

MERP (12:06)
And it did address a very good need, I will say, and Atlanta County was very good about identifying people that would fit into

that program. But before what you're going to talk about occurred, the missing element was really having individuals being able to be diagnosed. It was my client's obligations to be able to have an official diagnosis and evaluation, which

became difficult for my clients who ⁓ might be indigent. I, you know, even though I'm a private attorney and my clients pay me, ⁓ I will say that a lot of my clients still are struggling financially. ⁓ And so if they don't have healthcare or the ability to get the diagnosis, they would still have been precluded from that program.

Meg Hoerner (12:44)
.

Gretchen Pickering (12:56)
Yes, and I think there were a lot of things that people learned and one of the problems with that program or one of the difficulties that they were experiencing is that there really was no funding for that program when they first got it up and running. But during the course of that, the evolution of that program, the court, because we're a joint vicinage, felt very strongly that we needed it in Cape May and we felt that we needed it in Cape May.

Meg Hoerner (13:11)
you

MERP (13:20)
So I'm gonna interrupt you

just for a second, because when people hear vicinage, I know nobody understands what we're saying. So for all my family listens, because they might be the only non-lawyers, Atlantic and Cape May County is the one vicinage, which means our judges can go back and forth. We have one assignment judge for both counties. And our counties are considered one in many ways. ⁓

Gretchen Pickering (13:27)
Yeah.

MERP (13:50)
with regards to the courts, sorry. So our vicinage had something different in Atlanta County, because we did have mental health diversionary program that was started, but it hadn't been started in Cape May. Is that fair?

Gretchen Pickering (14:03)
That's fair. And because of the success of the program up in Cape, up in Atlanta County, and the who was handling it is still handling it, was, very strongly that this was something that could translate into Cape May County. And we did too. My prosecutors, about, you know, with the ARRIVE program and the CIT training and things along those lines, he's very much ⁓ in favor of this kind of program and these situations. ⁓ But

Because of those, I suggested that maybe we might develop our own program. So I guess it almost was maybe two year, year and a half ago, I was going up to view Atlanta County and see how things were going with the effort to try and incorporate, start a program down here. And the courts were very supportive of that, but of course we had no funding source and that was a big issue. And then all of a sudden this grant became available and this grant is from

the Attorney General's office from DCJ. It is not from the AOC. And the grant is for a prosecutor run program that is a mental health diversion program intended to divert people with mental health issues away from the criminal justice system and more towards treatment. ⁓ It is not a blanket open-ended program. I mean, there are certain requirements that have to get met for this. You have to actually have charges. And we don't just take someone who has a ⁓

Meg Hoerner (15:04)
you .

Gretchen Pickering (15:29)
a VOP on an existing charge for failure to appear at a ⁓

treatment or something like that. They have to have new charges in Cape May County to be eligible for our program. ⁓ They really should be a Cape May County resident, ⁓ though if it's someone from Atlantic County, we might be able to work something out or someone from another county that has a program. Those are factors we have to think about. People from out of state right now, we really aren't.

Meg Hoerner (15:44)
you All right.

Gretchen Pickering (15:55)
you know, for the first person in the state, I'm not going to start going down that path right now. It's not to say never, but I think it's just it's a very difficult step to take when you're trying

to build something to suddenly jump into a very difficult monitoring, if you will, program or case management program when someone's out of state. But but that's why this started. This started because the court was very enthusiastic about it. We were enthusiastic about it. And then all of a sudden this grant

Meg Hoerner (16:07)
Okay. Okay.

Gretchen Pickering (16:23)
⁓ funding opportunity opened up. And as a result of the funding opportunity, ⁓ together with Atlanta County, we applied for the grant funding and received one of the largest grants that they, I think probably the largest grant that they offered. And we got $1.3 million for two years for both Cape and Atlanta County's programs. ⁓ Then we went out to bid and we selected, and JFS was selected as the provider. So we are now in the process of reviewing applications.

We've got court days set up and we are going to go through and I'm screening applications. Literally, I have a couple in front of me now that I'm taking a look at to determine if these people are legally eligible for the program. If they are not legally eligible, they're not going to get into the program.

Meg Hoerner (16:54)
⁓

MERP (17:09)
So let's talk about that, the legally.

I know Meg wants to ask the question. She's like on the edge of her feet.

Gretchen Pickering (17:13)
Hahaha

Meg Hoerner (17:16)
I decided I was going to let you run this interview.

MERP (17:18)
you think that's good. I knew you wanted to, but here's the thing

is that ⁓ we are all, even the criminal defense attorney here, are all in agreement that there's an understanding that there's people that can participate in these programs successfully. So I really have two questions on the legally eligible. So you said it's a prosecutor program. So what does that mean? And then the legally eligible ⁓

How is that defined? so that people, know, not all cases that there might be a mental health component are going to fall within mental health diversion. And I will make it really clear and easy. If you're charged with a homicide, the mental health diversion is not an appropriate ⁓ program for you. So you're not going to be legally eligible. And I don't know what other restrictions there are, but I'm 100 % confident on that one.

Gretchen Pickering (18:07)
Nope. No. Yeah.

Well,

that's a good bet. ⁓ I'll tell you, ⁓ I guess the first thing I should explain is that as a prosecutor run program, ⁓ our office is the gatekeeper essentially. We're the people who determine whether or not someone can get into the program. There isn't a right to the program. This is not PTI, this is not the Veterans Diversion Program, and this is definitely not recovery court. So it's somewhat of a newer animal, a little hybrid of

Meg Hoerner (18:26)
.

Gretchen Pickering (18:43)
of everything, but it's very clear that our office makes the determination if someone can get in, whether or not they have a mental health issue. It could be legitimate. They could have some mental health issues, but there are a couple things that have to happen. One, has to be a nexus between the charges and the mental health, okay, the mental health issue that's in there. The other thing that...

Meg Hoerner (18:54)
You

Gretchen Pickering (19:13)
has to be involved in this. Sorry, my phone's ringing. hope. ⁓ Okay, we'll just, well. Yeah.

MERP (19:19)
was gonna say, it's okay, you're still working, it's fine.

Gretchen Pickering (19:24)
So,

⁓ but there are certain charges that are not gonna be allowed as you hit on it with the first degree. First degree charges are not going to be allowed because essentially because this is a diversion program, we can't take very serious charges. ⁓

you know, we're trying to divert them away. The ultimate end goal of this would be to have the charges either dismissed or reduced, ⁓ but largely dismissed if it gets to that point. So you can't really do that when you got a homicide. of the safety of the community is such a huge issue here. And if someone is violent, I have very strong opinions about whether or not that person can get in. Now, obviously, there's going to be some situations where a person

MERP (19:48)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen Pickering (20:09)
There could be grayer areas, but they're very clear ones with first degree crimes. ⁓ If there's a DV offense, ⁓ and I'm talking a standard DV offense, know, spousal, boyfriend, girlfriend, that kind of DV offense with that kind of violence, I don't know that that person will get in because of the violence and because it's a DV. ⁓ Crimes against children will not, I'm going to exclude crimes against children. ⁓ Sexually based offenses are probably not going to get you in.

So there's a question of just safety in general that kind of covers all of this. Now there are some second degree charges that might get someone in, but when it comes to violent crimes or any of the ones I just mentioned, I think that those are pretty clearly not gonna be covered or might be subject to a real scrutiny, even if there is an obvious need. And we do and we'll be taking in, you know,

reaching out to victims if that is appropriate under the circumstances of the person who's applied has ⁓ issues with the victim. I think that's a very important thing, whether that person feels safe with someone going through a mental health program, because they're not going to be in custody. ⁓ They're going to have to deal with getting to appointments. They're going to have to deal with going to treatments. And it's going to be very difficult to deal with that if someone does not feel safe because the person is out there.

MERP (21:38)
Right. And so I'm going to assume with all the lists that you just gave, other than first, most first degree charges, that ⁓ there could be unique situations ⁓ depending on victim's perspective, the allegations, whether there's significant documentation and whether the person has the support system to be in the program. But that would be up to the defense attorney to really present all of that to the state.

⁓ right up front and ⁓ in order to support that, know, or justify that. ⁓

Gretchen Pickering (22:08)
Yes.

Yes.

One of the things you did mention, ⁓ Melissa, and that is ⁓ in terms of screening and things like that, and that some people don't have that accessibility or there could be undiagnosed mental health issues, but everyone kind of has a feeling that there's something else going on. That's one of the things that the funding that we got is enabling us to do, which hadn't been done in Atlantic County because they didn't have that. ⁓ So I think they had it done, but it's difficult when you...

don't have an initial screening and you just have to go on someone acting strangely. ⁓ Here, when we get an application and if someone gets enrolled or we need more information, the more information we can get from a defense attorney about anything, if they have an existing treatment provider, if they have any medical records or any records of any kind that would show us some kind of diagnosis, if that's available, that's gonna make reviewing an application even faster. But we also have JFS

able to do some general screening that could say, tell me, okay, this person does seem to have these kinds of issues. But the other thing that's really important is there's got to be a nexus. know, I have to have something that says that the mental health issue is what resulted in the criminal activity or caused the criminal activity or is tied to that criminal activity. can't just be a run of the mill thing that I had some issues and I just decided to go out and do something stupid.

Meg Hoerner (23:27)
Thank you.

Gretchen Pickering (23:44)
It just it's and that's going to be a very hard thing to prove. And I'm not saying it's going to be some cases. It will be easy. Other cases it's not going to be easy at all. ⁓ But the more information that we have in making that evaluation when it comes to the nexus and that is part of the legal eligibility part, because that's clear. That's actually part of the statute. There has to be some kind of nexus. You know, that's going to the more information we have, the better we can make that determination.

MERP (24:12)
So Meg, as you're listening to all of this as a former prosecutor and a former criminal defense attorney, what is going through your mind when you're hearing, ⁓ you know, sort of the, makes someone legally eligible and ⁓ the process of even applying or being considered for the mental health diversionary court?

(24:37)
Yeah, I mean, I have a lot of questions. I mean, I commend the Cape May County Prosecutor's Office for pursuing this grant along with Atlantic County because it is so necessary. I guess the questions that I have are first procedural and that is, you screening pre-indictment ⁓ for individuals and are they thereafter going to be expected to plead to an accusation?

That would be one question I would have. ⁓ The other thing that keeps running through my head is how I think this is ultimately so necessary on the municipal court level, because having practiced in municipal court as a defense attorney, ⁓ I saw a number of individuals that could have benefited. And so then my next question in my mind is, ⁓ would this be something that instead of remanding a case,

prosecutor could consider resolving it up in ⁓ Superior Court. So there are some procedural questions that I have. And in terms of just substantive thoughts, is tricky because all the parties have to be on the same page. ⁓ The prosecutor, the defense attorney, and

the individual charge to half the battle sometimes is having an acknowledgement, right? I know I've had a number of cases when I was a prosecutor where we would want to condition a play upon an individual completing mental health treatment. I had a number of conversations with defense attorneys at that point in time, like, can you force someone to take their medication, for example?

MERP (26:04)
having them acknowledge.

Gretchen Pickering (26:07)
You

Meg (26:28)
So the person charged has to be on the same page. And then perhaps most importantly, if there's a victim of the crime, you're going to have to get their buy-in on this too. And lots of times with these types of cases, you're going to have law enforcement officers who perhaps have been assaulted, ⁓ maybe not injured, but assaulted, which rises to the level of aggravated assault. And so there's a lot, would imagine, you your task is daunting to try to coordinate all those pieces. And there are a lot of pieces to the puzzle. ⁓

So then ultimately, guess my question would be, is the recommended disposition? How does that work? So I have a lot of, I think it's a wonderful program. I'm excited to hear about it. I have a lot of questions about it.

MERP (27:09)
I'm gonna jump in on the municipal court, Gretchen, and then I'm just gonna, then I'm gonna like send you the ball after that. ⁓ So in Atlanta County, ⁓ central municipal court, which has a majority of the court as well as Atlanta city joint municipal court, JFS is involved in both of them already to assist with mental health services ⁓ in those courtrooms as well.

Meg (27:12)
in

MERP (27:36)
It is not a mental health diversionary program there by any means, but they do have the support system in order to provide services. And there has been discussions of if there are service involved, that cases can be put on hold for a short period of time. And if they are able to follow through with the services that they need and with no further interaction with the justice system can have favorable results.

Meg Hoerner (28:06)
Yeah, and I do recall when I was a defense attorney having cases where JFS was involved and that was a great opportunity for individuals with those needs.

MERP (28:15)
Gretchen, can't answer any of the other questions Megan asked. She asked about eight altogether, so I'm just going to defer to you now.

Meg Hoerner (28:19)
Yeah.

Gretchen Pickering (28:19)
Well.

Well, I was writing some of them down, so I got some of it. I guess one thing I will start with is that this is truly only for indictable matters. Now, it doesn't mean something can't get remanded or dealt with in that respect, but it is only for the, have to have indictable charges. I don't know whether this might someday filter down to the municipal courts, but ⁓ at this point it is just with us. ⁓ In terms of, ⁓ I guess the first question, I think I'll start with, ⁓

how this comes about, how a case gets put in front of us. And there is an application, it's on our website. ⁓ You can link it in there and the application needs to get filled out completely, I might add. ⁓ I've seen some that have not come in completely and it's difficult, but they need to be complete and they can get uploaded through e-courts or they can get emailed to Krista Trulender. And I believe I have a, ⁓ her address is ⁓ listed in a press release we did.

Krista Truland is with the courts and she will schedule, once we get the applications filed to us, she will schedule that or put it on our list for staffing. The other way an application could be presented is it can be handed up in court, in which case the court staff would then make sure that we know about it and it would get scheduled for staffing. Once the applications are in, I start to do a review.

for the legal eligibility to determine if this person can actually get into the court. I like to do it as soon as possible, ⁓ but it does depend on the amount of information that we have given to us ⁓ and what's available. There's some I can screen in and out right away. There's some that I just don't have enough information based on the application to make a full decision. And in those cases, I might reach out to JFS to do an evaluation if the person is detained or something along those lines. ⁓ We're really still in our infancy.

MERP (30:12)
And Gretchen, just so I'm clear.

Gretchen Pickering (30:16)
⁓ So it's kind of, I'm trying to figure things out as we go along. ⁓ But ⁓ we do.

MERP (30:21)
The applications though are

uploaded by the defense attorneys, right? That's who's up, like it's not an individual defendant. Yeah, it's their attorney.

Gretchen Pickering (30:26)
Yes, yes, individual defendants aren't going to have that ability. But that's why they could also email

it to Krista Trulinder or hand it up in court if that's the case. ⁓ But so far, all the ones I've received have been from defense attorneys and they've been uploaded into e-courts. We screen at any time. They can do a pre-indictment, they could do a post-indictment. I've seen some where I think that...

don't know if they've sentenced yet, but ⁓ I know people have inquired about that. But at this point, it can be at any time during the process. ⁓ So, and we will take a look and we will consider it just, it's almost like a recovery court in lot of respects in that way, because they can file it at almost any time. But if it's pre-indictment, ⁓ I don't imagine that we would have someone plead to an accusation, but I think it's going to depend on the charges. It's going to depend on maybe a criminal history or something like that. If this is a repeat offender,

Meg Hoerner (31:08)
Thank

you

Gretchen Pickering (31:20)
multiple times of the same type of thing over and over again, I'm not sure we're gonna just let this one slide ⁓ if we let them in. So there has to be some kind of, I don't wanna call it a hammer if you will, but something there. And there are options as to pleading and ⁓ going through the process and having an alternate sentence as well. But these are all things that I haven't dealt with yet. I know that they've been dealt with in Atlantic and I draw on conversations with them about ⁓ where cases fit in.

Meg Hoerner (31:22)
Thank you.

Gretchen Pickering (31:50)
But at this point, I haven't experienced it. So it's still kind of fuzzy. Another thing that has come up in a lot of questions that I've had is I've had questions from people saying, my client's been declared incompetent. Sorry. Everything's done. There's nothing going on. The three of us all understand that. But there are a lot of other people out there who are not. We've gotten phone calls, which I can't take for obvious reasons, but from

families of defendants who have been declared incompetent. That's not what this program is for. So that's, and there's a fine line between competency and this kind of program and mental health issues. And I understand that, but the bottom line is, is we cannot have someone in this program who doesn't understand what the program is, doesn't understand what, important compliance is, and doesn't understand what the steps are that are necessary to get through. And we...

If that's not to say that someone who is involved in the program and doesn't comply a couple of times might not get second chances. I don't think that's the case. Obviously, it's very fact specific, but ⁓ the individual, the defendant, because they will be charged at that point, the defendant has to understand what the program is and has to understand that compliance is important and has to understand that they have to follow through with the treatment.

If that doesn't happen, they're going to get ultimately get be put out of the program.

MERP (33:24)
And that's why, I mean, you said it very clearly Gretchen, when you said if they're not competent, they can't participate. And we all nodded. ⁓ And it's clear because if you're not competent, you're not aware, you're saying you don't understand what's going on in the courtroom. You don't understand the ramifications. You don't understand. ⁓ You can't voluntarily participate in something that you cannot comprehend. ⁓

I mean, so there's multiple reasons if you are not competent. And there's a whole different avenue of handling a criminal matter when a defendant is not competent. Would you agree with that, Megan?

Meg Hoerner (34:07)
Well, absolutely. mean, and this is something that I, when I teach the course that I'm teaching, you you've got the different extremes, right? You've got competency issues, in which case the case is basically put on hold until that person regains competency. And then you've got, if they can, then you've got the other end of the spectrum as we know, which is perhaps a resolution of not guilty by reason of insanity. And then you've got this sea of cases in between.

MERP (34:25)
if they can.

Meg Hoerner (34:37)
You know, and again, the mental health diagnosis, I would imagine, doesn't ⁓ excuse or justify the behavior. This program, as I'm hearing it, Gretchen, and correct me if I'm wrong, is a program that's designed ⁓ to take it into consideration in the ultimate disposition of the case. And what's best to not only reduce recidivism for that particular person, but

⁓ also, you know, serve justice because that is the ultimate goal of you as a prosecutor and the prosecutor's representative is to seek justice. this sounds like this program is designed to do just that.

Gretchen Pickering (35:19)
think it is, Meg, I think the ultimate goal for this is, you for someone who gets into this program would be to have their charges dismissed provided they comply with treatment and whatever services are necessary as a result of that. But it's not a short term. I mean, I think this may be between one and three years is the usual term. ⁓ And it ⁓ does require court appearances.

as many as you might see in recovery court because you don't want to, it's difficult. ⁓ But it's enough court appearances to make sure someone is staying on track and they're going to have to work with the people who either JFS would recommend or whatever the staffing recommends. They're going to have to follow those programs. And if they follow those programs, then they can graduate, have their charges dismissed outright or depending on the charges, obviously. There are certain circumstances to take into

into effect. I mean, we don't want to have someone in here and have to go to jail. We want to help them. We want to help them get treatment, but they have to also want to do it themselves and help themselves. ⁓ But we do take the victim's information into consideration. I will not let someone in who has violent charges, who I believe ⁓ is not safe if a victim does not want that to happen. I think that's going to be a very tough sell under the circumstances.

But at this point, haven't been faced with that, but I anticipate that that's gonna be coming down the pike at some point in the future.

MERP (36:55)
Can I ask a very criminal defense oriented question? It is like, ⁓ I'm under the impression that it does not have to be only for first time offenders. That I understand that you're not getting, you might not want somebody who has, you know, ⁓ an extensive criminal record or a prior criminal record that involves ⁓ violence that would be concerning to be supervised, but ⁓

Gretchen Pickering (36:59)
You

MERP (37:24)
I'm also under the impression that the individual might or could have prior criminal contact and still be eligible for the mental health diversionary program.

Gretchen Pickering (37:34)
Yes, and I think that under those circumstances, I think it depends on the current charges. ⁓ But it also would depend on a history is going to be very important to understand. ⁓ There's certain things you're going to have to look at, history, see if there's escalation, see if there's any kinds of, there's a lot of questions you have to ask about this. And part of that history would also, if it's available, a mental health history of that individual. So.

MERP (37:40)
Mm-hmm.

Meg Hoerner (37:56)
you

Gretchen Pickering (38:02)
I certainly would not say that someone who's, this is only for first time offenders. It's not the case. ⁓

Meg Hoerner (38:02)
you

MERP (38:08)
I have one other very criminal defense oriented question, which isn't,

Meg Hoerner (38:09)
E

MERP (38:13)
it's so interesting. And I'm going to follow up with, I think it's so exciting for you to be on the front lines of creating a court program and having so much ability to shape the program, the dynamic of it, also the tone of it. I think that's like an amazing for...

Gretchen Pickering (38:33)
Mm-hmm.

MERP (38:37)
I think about in my career, that would be like an amazing, ⁓ I guess, accomplishment that I would be excited to be participating in. My one question with the prosecutor program, my last very criminal defense oriented question is, who gets to decide in the end if the person is in the mental health diversionary court and they're struggling? ⁓

Gretchen Pickering (38:51)
You

MERP (39:04)
Who gets to decide if mental health diversion is terminated? Is it the prosecutor's office or is it the judge?

Gretchen Pickering (39:13)
That's a very good question. don't know, having not experienced anything along those lines yet, I can't really say, but I do know that multiple second chances will be given. And I think that if the determination is made, and it also kind of depends on the compliance too. I mean, if this is someone who just refuses to even attend any treatment or anything like that, or goes and commits a violent crime, I think it's gonna be pretty clear what's happening. But it's, you

MERP (39:18)
I know.

Mm-hmm.

Friday.

I think we all agree on that. There are just many things

we agree on.

Gretchen Pickering (39:43)
Yes, but

there are so many gray areas here and I think that's going to be a combination of people, but I suspect that if it's gotten to the point where ⁓ we're done, ⁓ I don't know how that's going to play out. ⁓ I have to check with my counterparts to see if they've experienced that up in Atlantic, but I think it really is a very fact-specific question. ⁓ it is, I don't think it's fact-specific. I wish I could be.

Meg Hoerner (39:44)
Go!

MERP (39:58)
Yeah.

Meg Hoerner (40:03)
you

MERP (40:10)
Right.

will say in recovery court, it becomes an issue as well. There are times that probation and those supervising really feel that the person is done, that they don't want treatment, that they're not really participating genuinely in the program, where the judge might still believe that the person can successfully complete it or vice versa. ⁓ I think that

What's amazing about these diversionary programs, and then I'm going to stop because I see Megan has something to say, that it's probably the one side of criminal practice that when somebody's involved in a diversionary program, whether it's mental health diversion or recovery court or the veterans diversionary program, that everyone who's a stakeholder, the judges, the probation, the criminal defense attorneys,

Meg Hoerner (40:39)
Mm hmm.

MERP (41:04)
And even our clients, we all want them to succeed. We're all on that same side at that point, which is not really true in a lot of other aspects of our job. ⁓ I'm going to let Meg ask or jump in here because I see.

Gretchen Pickering (41:17)
Mm-hmm.

Meg Hoerner (41:20)
Well,

yeah, I just have, mean, I don't envy you. think it's gonna be, there's gonna be a lot of challenges, right? Because I haven't heard you say that second degree offenses are not ⁓ prohibited from applying, but I can't personally think of a second degree offense where it would, and I'm not making passing telling you you can't do it if you want, but I can't think of.

MERP (41:45)
I can think of some.

Gretchen Pickering (41:46)
Mm-hmm.

Meg Hoerner (41:47)
many second degree offenses where it would necessarily be appropriate if it wasn't appropriate for a third degree charge in any event. So then you're faced with probably primarily third and fourth degree individuals charged with third and fourth degree offenses who for whatever reason either don't want to use their PTI strike or are not PTI eligible, but who also for whatever reason we don't feel that a

MERP (41:49)
I can-

Meg Hoerner (42:16)
probationary supervision, which would generally you would consider a more strict type of supervision is also appropriate. So I'm trying to think of, you know, the perfect applicant ⁓ and the perfect resolution and what that looks like that's also not just better off handled as a remand. So again, I think it's a, and I don't know, and maybe you can answer this question, ⁓ does Kate McKinney still have a mental health

caseload on the probationary side.

Gretchen Pickering (42:47)
I think they still do. ⁓ I'm not as familiar with it, but I believe that they still have something there.

Meg Hoerner (42:49)
Right. Right. so,

these individuals aren't going to be supervised by any court staff?

MERP (42:58)
No, they are.

Gretchen Pickering (42:59)
they are, they are, there's people from probation are going to be involved in this as well as, you know, JFS and the staffing meetings are going to be, we will have people from the courts. We're going to have people from probation. There'll be a lot of people involved. Yeah. I mean, there's an agreement. Yeah.

Meg Hoerner (43:10)
So it's like an informal probation without the conviction for a period of time.

MERP (43:13)
Well, also I can tell you in Atlantic, yeah, in Atlantic

the probation officers that are supervising are part of that mental health probation unit. So they do have probation officers. JFS isn't supervising, just so we're clear. JFS is coordinating the services. They're able to provide a diagnosis. They're able to provide wraparound services.

Gretchen Pickering (43:22)
Mm-hmm. Yeah. ⁓

Mm-hmm.

MERP (43:37)
if individuals are having housing insecurity as well as mental health issues, ⁓ if they have food insecurity, if they need more support, if they need vocational training. ⁓ So they are doing the diagnosis or they can do the diagnosis and they can provide services, but they are not stepping in as probation, just so we're clear.

Gretchen Pickering (44:01)
Mm-hmm.

Yeah. No, they don't. That's true. That is true down here as well. And we're still trying to formulate it, but there are going to be people supervising them. It is going to be a form of probation. They are going to have to enter into an agreement, and they're going to have to keep in touch with people, and people are to have to keep in touch with them to make sure they are doing the things that need to get done. So they're not going to be just cut loose to go follow their, you know, go into a program. But there are people who going to keep an eye on it.

Meg Hoerner (44:24)
Mm hmm.

Gretchen Pickering (44:30)
Now, it's different from Atlantic in that some of the stuff that Atlantic dealt with, a lot of the things initially came from people going to the casinos repeatedly back and all over and over again. ⁓ And there are different housing issues that we're going to experience that they don't have or have differently up in Atlantic. I ⁓ think it's going to... ⁓

I'm very optimistic that it's going to play out, but I do know that there's going to be challenges. I'm already experiencing challenges looking at some of the applications because people are trying to get a feel for where we stand on issues and they're trying to get a feel for what our program is going to mean. you know, so I've seen some that I look at and I'm like, yeah, I don't think so. And this person and another thing I want to make clear is if we get an application for a candidate and that person is more

Meg Hoerner (45:04)
Right.

Gretchen Pickering (45:22)
should be in either recovery court or it's better served by recovery court or better served by like the veterans program, they're going to go there. This is the last one because for the veterans court for obvious reasons, there's the accessibility of the services through the VDP is I think what's

Meg Hoerner (45:25)
Okay. Okay.

MERP (45:37)
I don't know why anyone wouldn't choose Veterans Diversionary Program if they had it as an option. I think it's an amazing program in our vicinage. Yeah.

Gretchen Pickering (45:40)
I think that, I think that, yeah.

Exactly. Now, you know, someone who doesn't, who can't get into that program, that's another story. but

recovery court, if you're better served, if I don't see, if there's nothing in there, that's a clear mental health issue, ⁓ then that person really doesn't necessarily belong in mental health court. you know, I'm seeing challenges along those lines as to what are the, what are the boundaries of the program? And I expected that. I think we all expected that that's going to be the way it comes forward. And I think, ⁓ Megan, answer to your previous question.

Meg Hoerner (46:08)
Sure.

Gretchen Pickering (46:14)
There are some second degrees that might qualify someone, like a second degree burglary, for example, ⁓ might get someone into the program. But obviously, you've got some victim input issues that you have to resolve. So it's not as black and white. But clearly, crimes of violence are just

something that I don't stand for. I think that I have to, I'm not drawing a line, but they could view very skeptically because of.

community impact of something like that. ⁓ Stranger violence is something that terrifies me as well because it can be so random. So I think that we're still trying to figure things out.

MERP (46:52)
Right.

But in the second degree, sorry, I'll be quick. Some second degree charges are second degrees based on the initial what the police hear and that, you know, as the cases kind of develop more, they really are third degree charges. ⁓ so I hear what you're saying, Meg, about not, can't imagine second degree charges, but I'm just going to give you

Meg Hoerner (46:54)
Yeah, and I am sure I said.

MERP (47:22)
And I'm not this is not from the Cape May County perspective. This is from a criminal defense perspective. But I've had clients charged with secondary robberies where they're really shoplifting charges, you know, and

Meg Hoerner (47:32)
Well, that's a different discussion,

what the charge should be and whether the proofs rise to the level.

MERP (47:36)
Right, but these are individuals

that are already charged. They're criminally charged. And so then the question are, what are the real facts? And this is not about Kate May, but there are a lot of cases that I have where I think the charges might be a little bit more serious than what the conduct is. ⁓ And that gets parsed out. I assume that an effective criminal attorney is going to present the state

with ⁓ those mitigation issues and present a packet that's saying that I know it's a second degree, but this still falls within because of these reasons, right?

Gretchen Pickering (48:18)
those

are all factors that we consider and that's part of it. I mean, there is a recognition that some things, what they appear is not actually what happened ⁓ and there are various levels of that type of charge. So I think that it's just, ⁓ there are certain charges, certain second degrees, ⁓ second degrees are gonna get viewed a little more differently than thirds and fourths because they usually involve violence.

Whereas a third and fourth is not usually that way. But we don't rule them out completely. ⁓ So it's just a matter of what is presented. There's not gonna be like a hearing where you get to present to ⁓ the court what your charges are. It's the information that comes to us that we take a look at and we make a decision. Is this person eligible for it? And the key things are, if you can get me information about existing mental health issues, which...

Meg Hoerner (48:51)
Okay. Okay.

Gretchen Pickering (49:13)
don't always exist and I understand that and that's why we have JFS do screening

too. If you can get me information about that, information about a nexus and information, the more information I have when we're viewing an application, the better chances of making a fully informed decision are gonna be. ⁓ it's just, and we're just, we're gonna learn as we go along ⁓ as you know, that's just the way it is in its infancy, we're trying to figure everything out and I'm gonna be going to, ⁓

I'm sure I'll be back up in Atlantic, but I'm also going to be trying to go to other counties to their courts to see how they handle issues like this and to see how they handle, you know, what kind of things I can envision coming down. And they may have issues that are that we see in Cape May County, but Atlantic doesn't see. So I'm trying to get as well rounded an education concerning these programs statewide so that we can really do as good a job as we possibly can in the time frame. We have a lot in at least with this particular grant.

Meg Hoerner (50:14)
Is a plea required?

Gretchen Pickering (50:16)
Not necessarily. ⁓ Ordinarily, I would say no, but it does depend on the charges, depends on a lot of other factors. As I said, there are some situations where someone could have come into it with a plea and an alternate sentence, and then you go through this and maybe things get dismissed or downgraded or something like that. So I think a lot of it depends on the charges that we're dealing with. ⁓

you know, as I said, sometimes you just need to have that extra protection. ⁓ Even if it's to make a victim happy, you know.

MERP (50:50)
Yeah.

Meg Hoerner (50:50)
Right. Well, it also provides some resolution

to the case, right? And with a waiver of appeal, then it's there. So.

Gretchen Pickering (50:54)
Exactly.

Mm-hmm. Yup.

MERP (51:00)
So ladies, I know we've been on for a while, but I really have just a few more questions. ⁓ I'm not sure who this is better for, but how important do you think formal legal education is on mental health at this point? Where do you think we should be as lawyers ⁓ regarding education as we're kind of heading down this road? And it's not just, it's not just, ⁓

in combination. mean, there's now a mental health court, a mental health diversionary court we're dealing with. What do you think the, whether the legal education system, law schools, CLEs, what should we be doing more for lawyers to kind of understand this connection?

Meg Hoerner (51:51)
I personally think that there should be, and I think that just the very existence of this program in Cape May County and in other counties shows an awareness on the part of prosecutors and the training that Gretchen talked about with police shows an awareness among the law enforcement community. And that's a big thing that I'm teaching in the course that I have right now. So I think it's absolutely important.

Knowledge and education ⁓ is never for naught. ⁓ I would suggest and I would defer to Gretchen, but I would suggest that it's very important to at least understand all the intricacies, right? We aren't mental health professionals, but if we're gonna be handling and looking ⁓ or teaching this, we certainly need to know as much as we can.

Gretchen Pickering (52:45)
I would agree with that. And I think that's reflected in the CIT training that I was mentioning before. That's crisis intervention training for ⁓ those who aren't familiar with all our acronyms. And I think that's a terrific program. I've taught parts of some things for it. I've also been to parts of it. I haven't been to the whole thing. ⁓ But from what I understand, it's really intended to at least educate

police officers, detectives, people on the front lines about how to recognize if a mental health issue is occurring as opposed to just responding with ⁓ training or gut reactions so that you can realize that what's going on as opposed to just, you know, and see what you can do to help. And I think that's a very important part. I think it's been very successful and I'm really, you know.

with the program that we have in place and that the response that it's gotten and that the people who have been involved in it. So the community awareness is out there. ⁓ I know we have multiple programs. I'm not going to get into all the details, but we have a lot of programs out there that are community oriented programs that kind of assist with those with people with issues, but also assist with the identification of the issues. You know, I know for example, we just started a blue envelope program for drivers licenses.

⁓ And I think that's a great program. And a lot of people don't realize that that kind of situation can arise. And I think that's all really part of how that plays in. So I think that there is an increased effort at education ⁓ in the identification of issues and then also the identification of at least knowing when you need to get other people involved to help out. So I think it's there and I think it's definitely moving in that direction.

MERP (54:34)
So Gretchen, I'm gonna ask you a big, big view question to finish up. What does success look for you in the mental health diversionary court system, let's say five years? What do you see success as?

Gretchen Pickering (54:50)
⁓ I

see success is going to be based on ⁓ how many graduates we have and whether we've had people successfully go through the program. ⁓ It's very measured right now ⁓ because we really don't have anyone in the program yet. ⁓ So I can't really say. we have a two-year window right now is what our grant covers. ⁓ So if we get some good numbers of people in the program who are responding to the program.

Meg Hoerner (55:03)
you

you

Gretchen Pickering (55:18)
and it works out well, then the program can continue. And that's what I'd like to see.

⁓ That would be my short-term success. Long-term would be to see graduates come through and be successfully treated. I can't ever say that I would never expect to see people come back. I think that's one of the issues when you're dealing with mental health, ⁓ that it is something that could come back. And treatment can be long-term, but treatment can also just be a short-term band-aid in some respects.

So ⁓ I think that, and there's so many other factors that go into it, housing security, food security, ⁓ support, community support, family support, things like that all go into these kinds of things. So ⁓ you have to look at all of this with those kind of ⁓ features in mind and realize that your success can kind of depends on how things were able to work out. So I guess getting some good numbers in our program of people who are willing to try and to do things.

is a great measure of our success and will would allow hopefully for the continuity of the program. And then ⁓ I would love to see graduates. But I, you know, it's that takes time and patience and practice.

Meg Hoerner (56:21)
Okay.

MERP (56:35)
Great, thank you so much for talking to me and Meg. Meg, do you have any last words? I want to make sure you said everything you want to say.

Meg Hoerner (56:37)
⁓ Well,

I think that I would love to hear ⁓ how the program is going. perhaps ⁓ Gretchen could come back on your podcast and give an update as to how the program is developing. This kind of reminds me of years ago when

Recovery Court, formerly known as Drug Court, was starting and there were lot of kinks to work out and there were studies that were done after a period of time to show the reduced recidivism and all the benefits of it. So ⁓ I kind of feel like Cape May County and the other counties that have started these similar either pilot programs or in case of Atlantic, the grant programs through the ⁓ Division of Criminal Justice, I feel like we're kind of watching the forefront of something new.

and a new way to look at criminal justice. So I would love to hear back.

MERP (57:41)
Sounds good. So, see.

Gretchen Pickering (57:42)
Well, we'd be delighted and.

MERP (57:46)
I was going to say same place, same time, maybe December. December 6th. That'll be 12 months.

Gretchen Pickering (57:54)
Yeah

MERP (57:59)
Thank you both for coming. Thank you both for coming and talking. I think ⁓ this issue of mental health has been, know, I've talked about it about lawyer wellness and lawyer wellbeing. ⁓ It has been also really, ⁓ I've seen it for my whole career, 30 years doing criminal defense, how ⁓ mental health really is...

Gretchen Pickering (57:59)
I hope so. My pleasure.

MERP (58:26)
one of the reasons that people are involved in the criminal justice system, alcohol, drugs, mental health. And I think that if we're looking at it from a more holistic rehabilitative approach, ⁓ that we can have a safer society and ⁓ really have an effect on lowering recidivism in the criminal justice system.

Thanks, ladies. So don't log off.

Meg Hoerner (58:53)
Thanks, Melissa.

Gretchen Pickering (58:54)
Thank you.

Gretchen Pickering (59:00)
I know Mary Rubicki has done it and I know it's usually a bunch of people so I'm not quite sure who leads everything. They get kind of people from different walks.

Meg Hoerner (59:05)
Yeah. Yeah, I'm interested to learn about that because I didn't want to go off on a tangent because it wasn't on

topic. the topic of ⁓ mental health of law enforcement officers too is and their ability to interact with people. you know, I had someone that ⁓ had a friend or family member that was having a mental health crisis and they were able to get the... Is it Arise? Is that the program? Able to get someone from one of the Wildwoods

Gretchen Pickering (59:19)
Yeah.

Meg Hoerner (59:35)
to go out and they were able to get this individual in a hospital. I mean, back in the day, the person would have been locked up. So yeah, I mean, it's really changed and it's a really good thing.

Gretchen Pickering (59:40)
Mm-hmm. Exactly. Yeah.

MERP (59:43)
Right.

Well, a

Gretchen Pickering (59:47)
It is.

MERP (59:47)
lot

of my clients call the police with help, you know, 10 years ago, five years ago. And Gretchen, I know you probably will roll your eyes when I say this, but I used to say to my clients, don't call the police for help. They're going to arrest you because they didn't have the skills at that time, you know.

Gretchen Pickering (59:50)
Mm-hmm.

Meg Hoerner (59:51)
Mm-hmm.

Gretchen Pickering (1:00:04)
Yeah, and

they're being developed now. And I think it's a great thing. mean, we have that. There's ⁓ barricaded individuals. We have a whole bunch of programs that are out there that are able to assist the police in responding to these kind of situations and also to assist the people who are in those situations so that you don't make matters much worse than they really are and you can actually direct things in the appropriate manner. ⁓

So I'm very pleased with the way things are working out. I know our prosecutor is just thrilled with this. He is very heavily invested in this ⁓ and has been for a long time. So I wanted to at least put out and let you guys know that he's very enthusiastic. ⁓ maybe as we go through things, he might be interested in participating as well. So ⁓ just wanted to let you know.

Meg Hoerner (1:00:51)
Who's the judge handling the list?

Gretchen Pickering (1:00:54)
Judge Walton. He's also doing Atlantic County. He was very instrumental in getting us moving on this. mean, we've been talking about it, but he ⁓ went and got the, I think he spoke to Judge Blee before Judge Blee went up ⁓ to the AOC. And Judge Blee had said, yeah, let's do it. And they had applied to get us to extend Atlantic's program. This is before the grant even became available. We even knew it existed. So we've been trying to do it.

MERP (1:00:54)
Judge Waltman.

Meg Hoerner (1:01:21)
How often are

you having a court?

Gretchen Pickering (1:01:24)
Right now it's going to be once a month staffing and court days on the same date. First day, think, is February 17th. ⁓ I don't know how many of the applicants I'm looking at are scheduled for that date yet, ⁓ but we're getting applications in and we're going to go forward with it. And if we have to make it two separate days a month, one day for staffing, one day for court, then so be it, we'll deal with it that way. But right now we're starting off at once.

Meg Hoerner (1:01:48)
You're gonna need another AP to help you.

Gretchen Pickering (1:01:51)
Hahaha

MERP (1:01:52)
Wait, wait, are you volunteering to go back?

Meg Hoerner (1:01:53)
No,

Gretchen Pickering (1:01:54)
⁓

Come on Meg!

Meg Hoerner (1:01:56)
no, I'm just saying if I was running the office I would tell you you need another IP.

Gretchen Pickering (1:02:00)
Well, we're going to see how

things go and I'm going to get be involved right now. And you know, ⁓ Joanna Vizal from my office is going to be involved in things as well. ⁓ But for startup and to make sure we get on a get grooving, I want to keep my hands in it to make sure we're OK.

Meg Hoerner (1:02:16)
Good. Good. Well, good luck to you.

MERP (1:02:16)
And I'm just gonna shout out Judge,

I'm gonna shout out Judge Waldman because, know, ⁓ this is something that I know he truly believes in and he was in recovery court. So he saw the dual diagnosis issue ⁓ and ⁓ he's also involved with the Supreme Court Wellness Committee. So I know it's like a genuine, ⁓ you know, I think that a lot of times judges don't get to be

Gretchen Pickering (1:02:25)
very much.

Mm-hmm.

Yes.

MERP (1:02:45)
in the courtroom that they want, you're assigned, which, you know, whether you're in criminal or civil or family, and ⁓ it's nice to see someone in a courtroom really handling cases that they're passionate about and believe in to really try to provide the treatment for the individuals that are in front of them. So, yeah, it's amazing that he was able to do

Gretchen Pickering (1:02:51)
Yeah.

Mm-hmm.

Meg Hoerner (1:03:10)
Great.