David Bruno and the Unexpected Path

Announcer  (00:00.162)
podcast is not a source of legal advice. No two legal cases are the same. Contact an attorney if you require legal assistance.

Welcome to the Mighty MERP podcast where we explore the human side of high performance professionals. Today, I'm thrilled to be joined by David Bruno, a former prosecutor turned criminal defense attorney who brings powerful insights about the importance of mental health, avoiding burnout and maintaining a balance in this demanding world of law that we're both in.

David's legal journey spans both sides of the courtroom and his story is enlightening as it is inspiring. Let's dive in. Welcome, Dave.

Thank you, Melissa. It's an absolute pleasure to be on your show.

I'm so excited for the conversation and I watched your Ted Talk this morning while I was on my Peloton working out. Definitely felt inspired by that. Tell me about your path into law, sort of your origin story and how you decided that law school and becoming a lawyer was the right path for you.

David Bruno Esq (01:07.512)
thank you so much for having me and such a great honor to be with you. I mean, look, I really never even thought about being a lawyer until I was in college. mean, late college was when this opportunity really developed for me. I came from a family, my mom and dad, they neither of them went to college. Blue collar growing up, they really provided for me and my sister.

and instilled in me really the hard work ethic that really has brought a lot of my success. growing up in that household, learning from my dad, one of the phrases that I recall my dad always saying to me is early to bed, early to rise makes a man healthy, wealthy and wise. And it's really something that I'm reminded of regularly because even to this day, one of the things that I write every single day in the journal is

get up, you know, it's like my one thing. Gary Keller wrote a book called The One Thing. And that is sort of like boiling down like the tasks and activities that are the foundation for success. And if you could drill them all the way down to one, and that repetitive sort of thought process of hammering down that one thing is something to think about. It's journaling and up early for me. And that was really instilled

in me by my parents very early on. I went to, I was an athlete when I was growing up. I baseball, football, wrestling.

So I'm going to interrupt you. I'm so sorry, but you're a trial attorney, which we're going to talk about trial attorneys versus just general practitioners or other attorneys. But I think most trial attorneys, most litigators were athletes. And I don't actually have any statistics to back it up. But when you said I was an athlete, I think I'm a trial attorney. I was an athlete.

MERP  (03:10.164)
I was a competitor. played soccer. I played softball. So I find it interesting that it seems like such a common thread for trial attorneys to really not just be athletes, but connected as such a part of their background and personality. So I didn't mean to interrupt, but go ahead. You were saying you were an athlete.

I agree. I agree in a sense that, you know, when, we're in athletics, we are in competition. I mean, there are generally two sides to every sport. You have an opponent and your success is essentially the same as what we have in the courtroom. I believe success results from two important things and that is experience and preparation.

And when you are competing in athletics, I think it's the same sort of recipe for success is get the experience, do the hard things and prepare to be prepared for that competition. And it's no different in the courtroom. Right. So when I look back and I, I look to myself and I do a lot of reflection on where I am today and how I got the skills that I have, it was work ethic.

And my mom too was always very organized. My mom was the one in our playroom that we had for me and my sister. I mean, there were filing cabinets with folders and Manila folders. And I remember oftentimes walking into the rooms that my mom would be working in and there would be piles of folders and documents and everything would be color coded. And it's something that I also bring now to my trial preparation.

I was just in Morris County on an FRO last week and I have color coded sort of outlines and cross-examination documents and all the things. But when I look back, right, it's that beginning. Because I never even thought about being a lawyer back in those days. Right. It was, I was going to Seton Hall. I went and I studied business. I was a finance major and I graduated in an 03 from Seton Hall and that was a very, very bad job market.

David Bruno Esq (05:18.52)
That was some very difficult economic times for our society and there weren't many jobs either. So when I wasn't getting the job that I wanted in the finance industry, I looked for alternatives. And that is when I ran into Ed Blinkis. And I don't know if you know Ed, but Ed was a former first assistant of Essex County. And he was also a former assistant United States attorney in the district of New Jersey.

So he had that prosecutorial experience and was a criminal defense attorney. And he's from my town and he was also into athletics in Randolph, much older than me, but really brought me under his wing to show me this awesome job that was out there. And I was like, wow, this is cool because it really reminded me of the wrestling mat. It reminded me of the football games and the baseball games.

And I started to take an interest in the law. And that's when I applied to all these law schools. look, wasn't the best athlete. mean, wasn't, strike that. Look, I wasn't the best student growing up either. And when I applied, I was getting rejections. I was rejected from Seton Hall. I was rejected from Rutgers. I was rejected from Pace and Brooklyn.

And I was accepted to one small school down in Miami, Florida, St. Thomas Law School. And so I made the decision. I went down to Miami and literally it was the best thing that happened to me. It was the thing I needed. I needed to change my environment because I was always in New Jersey. I still live in Morris County. That's where I grew up, but it took me out of my element. And it really forced me to focus on

for the first time in my life.

MERP  (07:14.432)
Yeah, I was going to ask though, like also being the rejected from sorry for the interruption, but the being rejected from all the schools to did that motivate you to know that when if you were doing this that you were going to be all in

It did. It did. You get those letters and you you're faced with tough times, tough times economically, right? The job market and not many options and then getting the letter after letter of rejection with one opportunity. And that was the that was the change that I needed an environment in the people around me. Right. You could tell by the success of the people that you have around you as well. Influencers, the coaches, the people that you work with.

And I was forced to go down there and really be surrounded by law school students. And we all had the same goals and we were immersed in the law. So I do well there. I come back home again on transfer, rejected everywhere except one school, New York law school. And I went to New York law school. I graduated in law school. And again, no jobs except for Ed Belencus. That man who took me under his wing.

brought me under his office and we started doing criminal defense work together. And it really was my first mentor. And I talk often about, never know who you're gonna meet. You never know who's gonna change your life. And that man changed the trajectory of my life, not only for the influence being a lawyer, but also the opportunity to get into the courtroom. And I started working alongside him.

And I told this story yesterday, I'll tell it again. There was a doctor that hired our office. It was me and Ed. And that doctor also hired Bob Bianchi, who is my now law partner and his father Angelo Bianchi. So it was the four of us preparing for this case in federal district court. That was my first trial actually, in front of Judge Chesler in the district of New Jersey on a very serious criminal case. And we would have these meetings and we would work. And I brought that

David Bruno Esq (09:23.82)
work ethic and those organizational skills to that preparation. Right? I had my box and I had my folders and I had all the things and I recall Bob sort of saying to Ed one day, man, I wish I had a Bruno, you know, like I made an impact. I definitely showed my value and those skills that I brought and little did I know at the time that Bob was being vetted to be the Morris County prosecutor.

He was a Governor Corzine appointee, right? So I didn't know that at the time. I didn't know the impact that I was making on him at the time. And then he goes to be appointed as the head county prosecutor of the county that I grew up in and the county that I lived in. So he reached out and said, listen, there's an opportunity here if you want it. And certainly with the experience that Blink has had.

He was a prosecutor. I knew that I needed to get the experience to do what Ed was doing on the defense side. And that's where I went to the Morris County Prosecutor.

It's really amazing. It's such a great life lesson about those small connections. And just, just, it sounds so trite or simple of just working hard and making the connections and that people will see your value and your worth without necessarily doing anything other than being authentically you. So it's amazing. And it sounds like you went to the prosecutor's office. You were still a pretty young attorney and

When people say to me that they want to be a trial attorney or they're interested in criminal law, my first advice to them is either go to a prosecutor's office or go to a public defender's office. And the reason why is you're going to get the most amount of trial experience. You are going to learn the most. I mean, I feel like I'm still learning every day in court and in cases and

MERP  (11:25.762)
The law sometimes changes, but those first two to three years at a prosecutor's office or a public defender's office, your knowledge, your experience, your ability, not just to prep a trial, but to interact with people, dealing with really challenging, emotional, life-affecting realities. And you're learning all of that. It really is being on the front lines. So that's amazing. I did not know that's how you met Bob either, which is a...

great story.

You know, Melissa, if I can on this point, because I did talk about this in the TEDx talk itself, and that is oftentimes lawyers, they need to get the experience. And it's very difficult to get experience as a young lawyer. Oftentimes the more seasoned attorneys are the ones handling the cases in court. And there's so many consequences in the criminal justice system as well.

to be just jumping in as an inexperienced attorney representing somebody that's charged with a crime with freedom and all the consequences at risk. So I think that you're right. That experience in the prosecutor's office is one that you're representing the state of New Jersey. And it's not as if, know, you have somebody that's facing years in prison. It is the public service. It's impact service at its best. So

It is.

David Bruno Esq (12:51.63)
great experience and I took that and I left with Bob. That's how we left and we left in 2013 and we started the Bianchi Law Group where we are today. And that was the experience I really needed to do the work that I was doing and on the defense side.

Right. And you're probably a better defense attorney because you were at the prosecutor's office.

us.

I agree with you and I did hear you say that you wanted the trial experience. Yeah, no, you know, if you're not at, if you're not doing the public service, whether, and I always say whether it's at the public defender's office or the prosecutor's, I started in Philly at the public defender's office there. It was an intense training. They didn't even allow you to have a jury trial until you were there approximately two to three years. You had bench trials, you were in the juvenile unit, which also had bench trials. You handled misdemeanor trials.

but not the major crimes until you had all that experience.

David Bruno Esq (13:49.858)
The other thing too I'll say about prosecutors experience, right? Cause look, prosecutors have these squads as well. They have the major crimes unit, they have the sex crimes unit, the family domestic violence. There are so many opportunities too to get into these squads. And that's important too because the squads have to go out on certain mandatory notifications. And I was very fortunate to get into the major crimes unit.

we were investigated the most serious crimes. And I would go to the crime scenes with the detectives. And I would work on search warrant affidavits with detectives and go to judge's houses to get warrants. And in the autopsies, watching the medical examiners do autopsies and all those things. So it's not just like walking into court and like trying cases. It also brings this other experience on the investigative side and also administrative side.

And there are so many things to learn at the prosecutor's office in addition to just walking into a court.

So let me ask you a question as a former prosecutor, now defense attorney. I don't think for you, it might've been as difficult because you started in defense, then you went to the prosecutors, then you went back into private defense. But it's a big shift from prosecuting people to defending them. And so I would say to you, did your views of justice or fairness change when you went from

Change.

MERP  (15:20.792)
prosecuting to defense or vice versa? Cause you sort of had a very interesting path where you handled defense beforehand. Then you were prosecuting and now you're back at defense. So do you think it's changed since you were on the side of the state for, I would assume it was about five years.

for,

David Bruno Esq (15:39.726)
So I don't think it's changed. Look, I think I took the optimal path, honestly. And that was I was able to get some criminal defense experience first. Because on the defense side, and I know you could also add to this, when you're dealing with your clients, you get to know them at their best. In essence, you know, they're behaving like better than the allegation.

Right? You get to know them in their elements. You get to know their family, their education, their employment, the consequences that flow from the criminal justice problems. And you really find, and you get to know them better. And prosecutors on the other hand, they're lacking that sort of understanding of who the clients are. They get to their office. And when you're a line trial lawyer, basically you walk into the

office every single day and there's a new stack of files on your desk. are coming in like the mail as prosecutors and what they do is they open up the file and oftentimes the criminal history is on the left and then on the right you'll find the police reports and the witness statements and the investigation and it's like the bad guy bad gal stuff.

Right. And the file is the state's best case also.

They don't know who the defendant is. They don't know any of those things. Right? And they can't... Yeah.

MERP  (17:06.167)
And everything in their file is the strongest part of their case. And there's no credibility or nuance when they're looking at that file. So, yeah.

So what we prioritize on the defense side is mitigation. On the defense side, and I think you're coming to the question, how do you do it? You probably get the question all the time. How do you represent these people charged with crime?

Yeah, well, I think that's the nicest way that you get it. get the, you know, I do get the how do you do it or how do you represent those people or

is understanding that there's mitigation to be done. There's two ways and there's two tracks to handle criminal defense cases. There's holding the government to their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt and assessing their evidence and whether or not there are legal issues to file motions and exploit and try to suppress and attack the credibility of witnesses. And all of that is one track. But there's a second track.

that is humanizing your client for the prosecutors because there's that void of understanding who the clients are. Because when prosecutors do open up the file, like I said, they have those two sides. And what they have to do is evaluate the case and offer a plea offer, a disposition, because our criminal justice system only works when cases are resolving with pleas and negotiation, right? And oftentimes the young assistant prosecutor will have to go to a supervisor

David Bruno Esq (18:45.08)
to get approval for that particular plea offer. And when they get to the approval, they are advancing the government's positions exclusively. So if us working on the defense side can humanize the clients, the defendants for the prosecutors, and maybe include just a little bit of that in that summary, going to the supervisors for that plea approval, I think it does change things in the eyes of the prosecutor.

who need to evaluate the case and decide what's the best disposition for that particular case.

Right. think we've talked previously. think we both have the same philosophy, you know, of humanizing our clients, mitigating, you know, and I'm going to say I have some clients and I have cases where, you know, the mitigation is the goal because the facts aren't great facts or there might not be a defense, letting the state know and mitigation is really advocating

about your client as a whole human. You know, I say to my clients, what would be, what would your biggest cheerleader say about you? I want it, you know, and it's usually the mom, you know, if your mom was here, tell me everything she would brag to you about, brag about you, you know? And sometimes it's finding the fair and just results. I think people don't always realize that. Listen, there's cases where

Yeah.

MERP  (20:15.864)
they're going to go to trial and they're going down that first path that you said that it's going to be filing motions, that it's going to be fighting the case. And I'm going to say it. have clients that are innocent. I believe in them and we are going to fight, you know, full force.

I'm with you.

But the cases where they might not have strong defenses, it's really about humanizing and mitigating and finding the fair and just result for the state, but more importantly for my client. Because people don't realize criminal convictions create a ripple effect that it's not just a conviction, it can affect housing, it can affect employment, it can obviously affect their freedom.

It has long-term goals that long-term, not goals, but ramifications with any conviction. So, when people ask you that question, how do you do what you do? I know what I say to people, which is I like my clients. I might not always like what they do, but I get to know them and I like who I've never the clients that for whatever reason, I did not get along with or

didn't like it had nothing ever to do with what they were charged with or what brought them into my office.

David Bruno Esq (21:37.292)
Not good. I agree. I love what I do, Melissa. And we could fast forward a little bit too, because we have grown this law firm and we're servicing and helping more clients. And I wish that we could help everybody that calls this office. Right. Because financial resources is also a variable that unfortunately is important in our criminal justice system. Because sometimes, I mean, some of the more serious cases too require experts.

require investigators, require effort and time that goes in. mean, and that all does cost money to deliver too. it's like impact and service at its best, which are values that I really are valuing in this season of my career is the ability to help people not only in this law practice, but also into the law life community that we're both in.

and talking about mental health and attorney wellness, because that is certainly something I know we're going to talk about because we both value that.

We are. I'm gonna, I'm gonna thank you for helping us shift the gear, but I was going to say, so you and Bob opened up your practice, your criminal defense firm, your, I'm gonna say a medium sized firm at least, right? And is it fair to say you're going full throttle on your career, right? Going 100 miles per hour and then 2020 hit, COVID hit. And for you, who I'm gonna describe you as like all in,

you know, probably a, what people imagine trial attorneys working 24 seven phone, always in hand nonstop, which is like the recipe for burnout. And all of a sudden, you know, the court rooms stopped court stopped everything stopped in March of 2020. And when that happened, please share sort of.

MERP  (23:44.288)
I'm going to say almost an awakening or a realization for you. it, I'm going to say, I know you're still doing defense work, but it almost had you go down a different path or a different way of doing what we do.

Yeah. So Bob and I left the prosecutor's office in 2013. You Bob is my 18 years, my senior. He was the county prosecutor. He had done the running around before. And when we opened up the doors, our roles were very clear. And I was going to be the one hustling, especially in the municipal courts and the county courts on the on the.

normal cases and that brought me all across the state of New Jersey early mornings late nights I was hustling and certainly I was on a trajectory of overwhelm

Right. And so people don't know when you're in municipal court handling traffic tickets, DUIs and disorderly persons and superior court, how many courtrooms could you hit in one day? Like, I don't know if people who don't do what we did understand the, the amount of driving, the amount of courts, the amount of cases, how many, mean, I could imagine you being in five to six courtrooms a day with

10 to 15 clients, different clients that you're managing each day, right?

David Bruno Esq (25:10.124)
Yeah, there were a number of things pulling me away from my priorities. And that was municipal court, superior court, and then all, and I was trying a lot of cases too. I mean, I've built up a reputation to speak on domestic violence and restraining order work that I get from matrimonial attorneys throughout the state of New Jersey. And those, was just in court last week on that. I mean, it's hurry up and go.

voluminous scope of evidence that's relevant because of history. And then on top of that, I started doing national TV work and I started doing that in shortly after leaving the prosecutor's office. So that was I was going into the city to do TV as well. Early mornings, late nights in court. was a trajectory of burnout. And when you said COVID stopped the courthouses, right? Not me, Melissa.

I was on trial in Union County in front of Judge Candido Rodriguez on a serious sex assault case with a jury and the Judge Grant order came down. And I ran to that order real quick and I looked at it and it said, yeah, courthouses were shut down except the ongoing jury trials. So I was on trial when the courthouses shut down and I was still going into Union County Superior Court.

I was the only I'm it was a ghost town. I mean, it was eerie, Melissa. When I was driving to Union County, there was no one on the roads. Right. And when I was entering the courthouse, there was a sheriff's officer with no one else. And the courthouse was empty. And even in front of the judge, I was filing for mistrial because the order was that you can't have more than 10 people in a room while I had

14 people in the jury So literally when you say full stop for me it was like

Announcer  (27:05.299)
Right.

MERP  (27:11.828)
It was not a full stop. It was not a full stop. You were still in full mode. Yeah.

Yeah, but shortly after that case, I did come home and we were quarantined in the house and the courthouses were shut down and there were no people calling our offices and there was scarcity of the cases. Nobody was leaving their houses. No arrests were being made and all of us criminal defense attorneys were looking at each other. Now what?

Yeah. So I'm going to just throw a little bit difference. I, when it stopped, when the courts closed and we thought it was two weeks and then it was only going to be four weeks where you were in trial, I thought, my goodness, I'm going to be able to catch up on my motions and briefs and filings for that month, which I, which felt kind of almost like a breather, which is crazy to say.

Sure.

MERP  (28:12.438)
So I will also.

It didn't last for one month. This was an extended period of time.

Yeah. So tell me after you finally finished your jury trial or I mean it had to end and, and you're back now quarantined in your home. What happened next? What, what was the, what was the, you know, you're talking about law firms concerned about clients keeping overhead.

still moving forward on the practice of law. How do you keep a business open?

If

MERP  (28:53.25)
There's no court. So what did you do?

Right? Well, it's how you your time. And I'm a big proponent of time management and eliminating distractions and focusing on what I call my rails. And my rails are faith, relationships, body and business, because there's so many ways to distract yourself, especially home. When we were home, right, it's Netflix and it's like all these things and everyone's drinking and

I'll you, I went into my office every day because it was just me and a paralegal at the time, because my office was still pretty young, but I couldn't work at home. I had all those distractions and I was fortunate. I don't know. I think you might have had really young kids when COVID hit, correct? Yeah, I did. my kids were high school kids.

and they were fortunate. I'm so lucky you can hear my dogs barking, talking about being home. My kids were old enough and good enough students. So it happened my youngest freshman year and my twins were juniors and then senior year into sophomore year that I could just wake them up and say, log on. And they logged on and they were fine because they didn't need the support or the help. And I was like, I'm going into the office and cause I couldn't work from home because of all the distractions that you're talking about.

could not get anything done. Yeah. So.

David Bruno Esq (30:22.336)
Young, kids at home during COVID and so fortunate to marry the right person. And I have a support system at home, my wife, that I couldn't have done any of this without her and her being available to do those things. And the big change, Melissa, was I'll never forget it. Bob Bianchi gives me a call and sends me a link to a webinar. And it was R. John Robert.

Robbins. It was R. John Robbins, who is the owner of How to Manage a Small Law Office. It's one of these coaching and communities for attorneys. And it was like this free webinar, like five days in a row and three hours. And I'm like, what is this? It's like we never had. there's all these masterminds and master classes and communities that we never took advantage of. And that was the first time.

That was the first time being in a Zoom room and looking at all those boxes with a bunch of other terrified lawyers going through the same stresses and talking about business plans and key performance indicators and budgets and all these things that Bob and I never even knew. mean, we ran our office. Basically, we paid the bills and then whatever we had at the end, we cut it up.

We didn't know how many leads we had. We didn't know conversion rates. And we never had forward-facing budgets for 18. None of that. So we started to learn. started.

Right. Because they don't teach us any of that in law school. mean, not that when I went to law school, there wasn't the web anyway. I know I just stated myself. wasn't, you know, Westlaw was like brand new. had to like, you know, a search costs like X amount of dollars. But my point is, is that when we're in law school, we learn to maybe think like a lawyer. You don't really learn how to be a lawyer and you certainly don't learn how to run a business.

MERP  (32:29.718)
You don't learn how the leads, the marketing, none of that, you know? So that's why there are lawyers that could be really good lawyers, but they're not successful law firms because they don't know how to run a business.

Absolutely. And I started learning things. And again, I didn't have that shift yet. I still was really focused on business and growing as a lawyer and learning the business and all those things. So I started to do those things. I went on the webinars and we learned things and then we ended up in a group where we had Zooms with multiple lawyers, with a coach and all these things.

And that's when I started to really listen to other coaches. And Ed Milet is a mentor of mine that changed my life. Okay, because I was out in California after COVID learning about business with Billy Jean is marketing. He's one of those guys that talk about funnels and paid ads and all those things. And in Petco Park, San Diego, and it was a nighttime event.

Billie Jean talked and Dean Rossiocci talked and ClickFunnels had a representative there. And then Ed Milet comes out. And this guy had a book that just came out called The Power of One More. And he's a motivational speaker. And it was shortly after the Uvalde Elementary School shooting in Texas, where elementary school students were killed by a mass shooter.

and he was donating the proceeds of his book to the family, right? And he talked about his father and his, he was raised in an abusive relationship. And he talked about family and he talked about faith and he talked about wellness and time management and gratitude and appreciation. And I'm sitting in this Petco Park in San Diego with two young children back home.

David Bruno Esq (34:33.804)
And I'm thinking about what if they were my children? And you know, did I maximize the time that I had with them? And have I been using my time efficiently? And have I been focusing on the right things? And really that was the change. It was thinking about my kids in that context. So on the way home from San Diego, I listened to his audio book, Max Outt.

And I took notes and I took all these notes and then I got home and I started to listen to all of his podcast episodes. And I started to listen to Tony Robbins and Brendan Bouchard, another mentor of mine, and John Gordon, author John Gordon of Energy Bus, another mentor. And I started connecting with these people and learning from these people about being more well-rounded.

on these other priorities, which I now call my rails. And that was the change I had to make. I had to eliminate the distractions because when we're in these busy seasons of our careers, it may be a trial. It may be a volume of clients that we have to service. And that time that we have to put into that work is required. What's not required are the distractions that also take our time.

So instead of the Netflix, instead of the fantasy football, instead of the alcohol, know, all of it, remove that stuff and focus on the work that has to be done. And then the other priorities instead of the distractions has been really the awareness that I needed and the life change that came from COVID that I needed to change my trajectory and also now be

one of the most vocal alongside you on the social media platforms, on the stages and the CLEs to bring awareness to this problem that attorneys have with attorney wellness.

MERP  (36:40.3)
Right. So when you say focus on your priorities, is it fair to say that you made a conscious decision to really explore what the priorities are? think people very easily and superficially say, well, my family, you know, my family, my job, my this without really, I'm going to say prioritizing your priorities, which is.

knowing what they are and making sure that they really are first and foremost, you know?

While you were, while you, so it's funny that you're talking about listening to the podcast and reading these books. I feel like I went through the same thing as well of trying to figure out how to be in some ways the best mom for my kids through their struggles with mental health and being able to advocate for them and support them as well as being aware of my mental health as well during that process and still being a strong advocate for my clients.

And it's figuring out the priorities. So while you were going through this process, did you talk about journaling? know you journal all the time. Was that part of really narrowing in and zoning in on the priorities? And if someone said, what are your priorities? You're now able, I'm sure, to be specific. And those are your rails that you always are able to return to.

Rails. Rails.

David Bruno Esq (38:10.69)
Yes, the concept of rails. Think about a roller coaster or a train or whatever it is. And I could really get into a meditation where I visually think about a train on its rails going through the mountain and it's going to hit weather and it may hit terrain and incline and decline. And the rail, if those rails are nice and oiled and they're slick,

and they're intact on the rails. It's going to allow that vessel to get through the tough times. And it's really the illustration that I repeatedly say in my mind and in my journaling to stay on the rails. When I make decisions, I want to be on my rails. When I use my time, I want to be on the rails. So how do we actually bring awareness to this? Right? Because this is important. It's something, it's easy to just say it, right? However,

In addition to eliminating distractions, it's a worthy conversation about the habits that we have in our life. Because my habit of a morning is my rocket. It's my launch pad to the day. Okay, so I have instilled a habit in the morning and in the evening so that I could win my days. Win the morning, win the evening, win the days.

start stacking wins. So when I get up, I try to get up as early as possible, right? And when I do, I don't go to the phone. I mean, how often do we roll out of bed, look at text messages, go to Instagram, in the emails, and just get completely distracted with fires, emergencies, and problems? So instead of that, I go to my Spotify, and I have a playlist that I call

God's plan, which are curated songs that are positive. And I just throw on my headphones and I start listening to positive music. And then I get out my journal. It's the Brendan Burchard High Performance Planner that has, it starts off on the top with messages to self. every single morning I have to remind myself certain messages.

David Bruno Esq (40:36.106)
And it starts off with avoid procrastination, triggers, patterns, and distraction.

Right. And those are your personal, your every day, you're reminding yourself of your personal. And yeah, I always say to my kids, you know, sometimes we have to learn the same life lesson over and over again, and you'll see the pattern of the life lesson and you see the pattern. so you now every day are addressing it. I'm going to add one thing to

pattern, Melissa, let's talk about that for one second, right? Tony Robbins talks about patterns a lot in his work. look, the early civilization had to realize the pattern of seasons first, right? The season of winter and spring and summer and fall and how to cultivate food. It's no different in our lives, you know, especially parenting.

I think for parenting, the words pattern and triggers are something that I need to bring awareness to because my kids too are still young right now, right? Every night when it comes time for bedtime, they are hungry, right? It's like instead of brushing and going to bed at a normal hour, it's we're hungry or where are they, right? It's like the iPads and this and that. I could see now if I bring awareness to these patterns,

And also the triggers I could see from afar now bringing awareness to when the breakdown's coming, when the conflict's coming, right? And now life's not perfect, trust me. And I still have problems parenting. But with that being said, the awareness of patterns and triggers is a good example in the parenting world. And also when our law practices and things like that distractions go into procrastinate, these are just reoccurring themes that I see.

David Bruno Esq (42:33.912)
that I want to bring awareness to in my life. That's just one thing I write, Melissa.

But I love that it's like the start of it is what I love about it is that it's the start of it. I'm gonna actually throw out a book recommendation, Atomic Habits by James Clearly. I read that recently, I know it's been out for a while. But for people that are listening and they're like, I am not disciplined, I can't do that. Or I am going to tell you that read the book, it makes it so palatable about little changes.

No one is going to wake up tomorrow who has never journaled, take out the journal. Someone you're never going to wake up at five in the morning tomorrow. If you sleep till seven 30 every day, you know, you, you don't have to make all these great changes all at once. It's really little changes. And it's such a great book of trying to really implement and explain it, you know, about how to create these positive.

habits that can be life-changing.

Look, you want to change your life? Change your habits. Simply put, you know, it's the best thing and biggest thing that you could do for change. And that is when I feel that it's that morning, right? Because now I'm listening to the music, I'm starting to journal, I'm thinking about gratitude and appreciation. Who's the person I want to be today? What are the things I need to be do? Prioritize the things, right? And then after that,

David Bruno Esq (44:06.85)
And I'm also drinking hydrating with water throughout that process. Then you mentioned Peloton. There you go. got the pink thing. We are so alike, honestly. So then after that, after the journal is Peloton. And that was a huge game changer for me when I got that bike. I have the bike in my house. I have the tread in the house. And then for anybody that doesn't have, I know you're on it too, but anyone that doesn't have Peloton or any like program like Peloton.

There's other things too, like there's a full body workout you could do. You could do a core workout. You could yoga, Pilates.

Do you know, do you know statistically 10 minutes of body movement actually has a dramatic effect on mental health? 10 minutes doesn't, mean, clearly Dave and I are getting up and we're doing more than 10 minutes. I'm confident about that, but 10 minutes makes a difference of changing your, your mental health.

making you feel more energized, making you motivated. There's like real scientific evidence that shows it helps with depression, which is, you know, unfortunately a real, real issue, not just with lawyers, but with just many people today being diagnosed with, severe depression, anxiety.

without a doubt, can I just speak on this? Because when I started that habit of fitness, exercise, I would write to myself, and again, you wanna remind yourself of these things because we have an abundance of information coming from everywhere in our days. Emergencies will come up and problems, especially as lawyers, mean, all of our clients are experiencing problems. But I would write 20,

David Bruno Esq (46:02.796)
So I want to do a minimum of 20 minutes on either the bike or the tread and then a five minute core. So on my busiest of days, when I really don't have that much time, I'm just doing 20 and five. That's it. That's it. And it's just the rock. It's the beginning of the day. And I was talking to somebody, one of the dads, my son's in baseball camp right now and I got to bring them yesterday. And I was talking about this too.

one of the dads and he's like, Dave, how do you find time to do that? And my response was, how do I not do it, honestly? Because the setting of the priorities for the day and really mapping out the day and getting into the right mindset while eliminating those distractions is critical to the day itself for me.

I agree. I agree. But I'm also going to tell you when people say, do you find the time? I think it goes back to the prioritizing as well. And I say this as a parent, anyone who has kids knows that your kids are going to be brutally honest with you, whether you want to hear it or not. And when I don't exercise, just say I just stopped for a few weeks for whatever reason. My kids when now my kids are older now, but when they were younger and we were all

you know, they weren't in college, they weren't away. We were all living together there in school. I would snap. I would be less patient. I would be, and my kids would say, when was the last time you went for a run? They would know that that was affecting my behavior, my mood, my mental health. And so I don't think you necessarily have to do, I mean, I do it in the morning for the reasons that you say.

You know, it sets off my day in a more positive way. lets me focus about my priorities. It also helps my brain kind of organize the day in a non-stressful way, in a very relaxing way while I'm running or on the bike. But I do know people, some people do it at the end of the day. And I would say, and that's okay. It's about creating the routine and the habit of knowing that it's there. And I do agree with you about the 25 minutes sometimes.

MERP  (48:26.124)
Sometimes I do put my timer on if I, for whatever reason, don't have the time that day. If I'm prepping for a trial, you know, if I have to say a restraining order that I know has a lot of exhibits and I want to get into the office earlier than usual to make sure everything's organized, then I do it for 10 minutes as well. So when people say, how do you do it? I always say, we all prioritize what's important to us.

A couple things on this point. First of all, that's the morning. And look, that morning is a rock star morning. mean, shower up, get the suit on, and then either go to court or to go about your day with that start really has a trajectory, a positive trajectory. But at night is equally important to wind down. OK? And I go back to the journal at night. And this journal now, it's not

being used as it was designed at all. I am using it completely differently right now. In the calendar section, I am just writing everything I remember from the day, Melissa. You know, up at six o'clock, God's plan, workout, went to Morris County Court. I saw Melissa, I saw Greg, I saw all of the things that I could remember from the day. I'm just writing down. I'm writing down the whole day, right? And also there's prompts about

gratitude and appreciation and how what I learned from the day and things like that. But that brain dump what I have found is very valuable to shut off my mind at night is like instead of staring up at the ceiling and thinking of the conversation I had with Melissa. It's kind of moving past that right and then also kind of using that to plan the next day if there's something that needs to be done a follow-up or something like that.

because sleep is just as equally as important as launching and it's getting to a nice mindset. And then after I do my journal, I put on my headset again in the Peloton app, I go to the meditation, Aditi Shah and she knows this too because I always tag her and it's funny because like the person that puts me to bed is Aditi Shah.

MERP  (50:45.126)
that's funny.

Meditation and it just I never finish the meditation I always wake up my headphones are like somewhere in the bed or on the floor or something like that, but I'm able to shut down and that is so important too because I know when we have problems in our lives and everybody does you know lawyers are servicing other people's problems and they also have their own problems

Bye.

a part of my attorney wellness talk that I frequently give to attorneys. But the problems need to go on the pad and not in the mind when we're trying to sleep because it's easy to start thinking about and ruminating about and worrying and the anxiety comes and it's inevitable that you're staring up at the ceiling or the phone comes out and you're scrolling or the Netflix is on.

because that's the time to shut down the mind.

MERP  (51:43.904)
Right, right. And again, sleep is, I also talk about wellness and I always talk about like, you know, very simple things to do to change or to help with fight against depression, anxiety, and just general well-being. And sleep is also one of those mean, you know, you cannot, I mean, I would say burnout for so many lawyers actually is triggered by the lack of sleep.

You know.

feeling and that's one of the reasons I think that like that morning routine is so important is because the attitudes and efforts that we have oftentimes rely on the way that we're feeling either mentally or physically. Now look, I want to get to the physical conversation again because I actually had a back surgery in my life in 2011.

I had a spinal fusion L5S1 that habilitated me. I was literally on a bed struggling to get out of bed and had to really learn how to walk again. And so I've come from a place of zero fitness and I understand that everybody is not physically able to do everything that we're talking about right now. And in fact,

Just a couple weeks ago, alright, we talked about my son in baseball. We were in the batting cages not too long ago, okay? And I get in, I put the helmet on, I got the bat, right? And I swim, like, ugh!

MERP  (53:25.234)
Yeah.

Next day, I wake up with pain in my sciatic. And then the next day it got worse. And I'll tell you, Melissa, I thought I may have screwed up my fusion. And for anybody that doesn't know what a fusion is, there's a plate in my back between two vertebrae with four screws fusing that disc and area together. And oftentimes when people have fusions, the problem that they have

is that the fusion breaks down or the screws come, I thought I had that problem. So obviously I wasn't doing my 25 every morning, right? I wasn't.

probably not moving very well at all.

But what I was doing at that time was stretching. I knew that I had to do something. I was not going to just let it get worse, right? So stretching, I went to the doctor, which is another thing about bringing awareness as opposed to avoidance to get the professional analysis and examination. And it wasn't my fusion. My fusion was tight and it wasn't that it was the secondary muscles. But I learned something again.

David Bruno Esq (54:39.776)
in the fitness conversation. And that is you need to do what you can do, right? You're not going to be at the same level as Melissa and I at all times. In fact, I wasn't. Then I got to walking. So now stretching and I'm walking and I'm building up back up to where I'm at now, where I'm back to my 25 and doing my pushups and stuff. So I think it's a worthy conversation for

our listeners to understand. It's the same thing in relationships, right? The relationships may not be where you want to be at all times. these rails may not be all firing on all cylinders on each level of the rail. But that's why the awareness needs to be brought to the forefront to say, hey, I mean, I may need to work on relationships now. I may need to work on

my relationship with my spouse or my kids or my siblings or my parents, but it's awareness. That's the critical part of the conversation because once the distractions start flying and the emails and the text messages start coming and all the other things in life start happening, it's easy to get derailed.

I agree. So let me ask you, what's your personal definition of a successful day? Now? You know, I know we talked about the mornings, the evenings, I love the reflection. I try to write a few, I write positive things of the day. Because sometimes I get home and I just feel exhausted. And so I like to write the positives.

I

MERP  (56:29.058)
But what do you consider a successful day when you feel like you've won the day?

Sure. A couple things. Brandon Burchard, again, I'll go to him. He wrote the book High Performance Habits, which is another habits book in addition to Atomic Habits, The Planner. And he also has a community called Growth Day. And I am a member of Growth Day. And Brandon Burchard is an example to follow. He puts out original content every single morning. So it's one of the things that I try to listen to daily, but every single time at the end,

He says, today is a great day to grow. Now, a successful day, in my opinion, would be improvement, growth, incrementally, as small as it may be. All right? It's one of the things I write on the paper is I want to squeeze every part, every juice out of the day that I can. All right? So the other thing too is in that morning process,

I am actually writing down my problems. All right. Because look, bringing awareness to the problems is important. And a day of problems is successful if you bring awareness to the problems. Right. I have I have a resilience framework that I say number one awareness over avoidance. Then it is what actions can you what are the actions that need to be take taking place?

on the things that you can control. Right? So, often times we're thinking about the things that we can't control. And I believe that the stress and the anxiety often comes from the uncertainty of the things that we can't control. So, I want to be aware of the things that need to happen. The problems that I have in my life. I want to take action on the things that are bothering me.

MERP  (58:14.574)
Thanks

David Bruno Esq (58:35.99)
And I want to focus on the things that I can control versus the things I can't. And for the things that I can't, that's where that first rail comes in for me. And that is faith. All right. And I mentioned God's plan for me. That is something that where I define faith. But if it's not religion for you, I would say optimism. And that is being optimistic that

today or tomorrow is going to be a better day. That good things are gonna happen. And with the faith for the things that you can't control and the action for the things that you can control, I am trying to improve and grow through the days. And with that mindset, oftentimes you'll start knocking down the things and the problems that you're worried about with action.

And optimism is something that you can learn and you can change your mindset on because there are people that are just not naturally positive or optimistic about whatever it is that is stressing them out. you can actually you can change your mindset about it, even if it's writing it down or saying it.

I'm thinking about this.

David Bruno Esq (01:00:02.252)
Yeah. So if anybody struggles with this, have another book recommendation. Sorry to cut you off. John Gordon, The Energy Bus. All right. This is a book that John Gordon wrote. He's an author and he has many books. He is, he's the coach for the coaches. right. Dabo, Sweeney and Clemson. And he goes to all the professional football teams. He's the guy that's coaching.

No, it's okay.

David Bruno Esq (01:00:31.884)
the coaches, right? And he's got this book called the energy bus. And if you listen to John Gordon, too, he talks about his negativity and the house that he was raised in. He was raised by a New York City detective. And he tells the stories about the detective, his dad saying, you know, when good day, he's like, what's so good about it? And I like and John grew up.

in that environment as well. And he writes about it and talks about it and he's one of the best sellers. And the energy bus is a book. actually listened to that on audiobook with my kids. Right. They talk about the energy bus now. Oh, that's funny. the energy bus for kids. But on optimism and mindset and attitude, books like the energy bus are certainly skills that could be learned.

They are skills and I'm just going to say that I always say it as find the silver lining. So when somebody says something to me, that's like it was a terrible day or whatever the negative of the statement is. And you know, I have four kids. So a lot of times it's to them of like, what's the silver lining? And unfortunately, or fortunately, they do roll their eyes at me. But in the end,

When we discuss it, there is always a silver lining and it might not be apparent. It might not be what you wanted, but it might be something that you can take away in a positive because there is always a silver lining. So positivity is a skill and it can be learned and it can be practiced like everything else we're talking about today.

So yeah, caught not taught. I mean for kids, another very, very simple, but effective phrase. that is, look, they're watching. You know, I just, was my birthday recently and my daughter brought home this thing. was father's day too, around that time. But she bought this thing and it was like a fill in the blank, like mad lib sort of thing. And what came through on those answers was like, would I appreciate about my dad, his positivity?

David Bruno Esq (01:02:44.98)
I know like, like it was like the the the principles and the way that I'm trying to hold myself as a leader and role model for both my kids in the legal community is really pouring out not only in some of the feedback I'm getting from my kids, but I was down at the state bar association recently, frequently, they're always commenting on the law life articles that I write, and the TEDx talk that I gave.

And the frequent CLE, it's like when you get the positive feedback from these communities as well, it really gives you positive reinforcement that what you're doing is making impact. that's really another way that I define my successes is impact, service, and community. want to be pushing those three principles constantly.

That's great. So I'm going to thank you so much for your time you've given. I mean, we have been talking for a long time and I think we could continue talking, which is crazy. But let me just ask, is there, do you have anything lined up next professionally or personally that you want to share or that you're excited about?

I could go all day.

David Bruno Esq (01:03:58.26)
So many things. First and foremost, the New Jersey State Bar Association is the largest community of lawyers in the state of New Jersey. And I was recently appointed by the incoming president, Christine Amalfi, to be the chair of the membership committee. And that is an awesome responsibility that I'm looking forward to because I have a year to work alongside the president and the administrators of the Bar Association.

And my initiatives are to bring awareness to community because I believe it's one of the answers to attorney wellness. And that is to be active in the community, to get alongside like-minded individuals. And I believe that the New Jersey State Bar Association is the group and community that could bring that opportunity to people. There are so many benefits.

and opportunities in the Bar Association, especially not to mention the services that they provide for attorney wellness and mental health. They have a hotline that any lawyer can call that is experiencing problems 24 seven. And there's even free counseling that can match you up with just by being a member of the association. That's a benefit. But also the opportunities for professional growth.

and personal growth to raise your hand, to be a member of a committee or a member of a new section, or to give, right? There are opportunities. And so as the chair of the membership committee of the State Bar Association, my initiative is to bring awareness to these opportunities for professional and personal growth. So I am gathering like-minded members.

And we have already discussed this and Melissa is going to be a member of the committee. And we have our first in-person meeting at the Law Center on July 10th. And this is going to be a year of bringing awareness and also the LinkedIn platform, which both you and I are on, is an excellent opportunity to advance community and link up and connect and nurture and support people by way of

David Bruno Esq (01:06:23.374)
and join the conversations. So I am going to make it a point to teach our community, our members, the people in the association, how not only we can support the Bar Association to propel the benefits and the opportunities through the algorithms of our social platforms, but also to use the platforms as a way of connection, nurturing and supporting each other.

in all of our initiatives. So I have a lot of things coming up, but at the top of the list is going to be that opportunity for impact and service and community that has been given to me by President Christine Amalfi to be the chair of the membership committee.

Thank you so much. Thank you for the invitation onto the committee as well. look forward to working with you and thank you for joining Mighty Marv Podcast. It's been great.

My pleasure. Thank you for having me and I look forward to continuing the conversation and working alongside you in collaborating on this very important topic of attorney wellness.

Thank you.

David Bruno Esq (01:07:33.112)
So Candy Valentino is an author. She is in the financial industry and she appeared on Ed Mylet's podcast and I listened to her on Ed's podcast and I connected with her and I reached out to her and she asked me to come on her show. So it was a lot like the podcast we just did where for the first time I was talking about overwhelm and burnout and the changes I made to my life.

And then all of sudden people were text messaging me and thanking me for talking about that. And I was like, holy shit, I might be onto something here. And then the Ted talk opportunity came. And that is when it just blew up. Because obviously after that, it led to more opportunities and then more positive feedback. And it was the positive feedback loop that really continued that.

Riot.

David Bruno Esq (01:08:32.354)
initiative.

Which is so funny or so sort of crazy that you were having the burnout conversation pretty much at the same time that the, Geraldine Lawrence, moving up to her presidency was doing the putting lawyers first task force that it all came at the same time of culminating about lawyer wellness and wellbeing. I'm not sure if you know this, we had an attorney at the same time who committed suicide in our community.

And it's, you know, we are in a very small community where I work. And so it like, was very shocking and very, just like putting it also wellness at the forefront. Cause it was an individual that was loved, respected. Everyone would say how kind and positive he was, that, it just all seemed to culminate at the same time.

of like really having those conversations.

Yeah, here's the crazy part about that. And Jerrolyn and I are very close. I mean, I'm her go-to when she needs help on the DVs and I don't know how, but I missed that whole initiative. Like I wasn't a part of that, you know, it was like, I did nothing on it. And meanwhile, I'm doing my own stuff with talking about the topic and it was

David Bruno Esq (01:10:00.91)
Jerrolyn that brought me on the wellness committee to speak and do a keynote. And at that time, I didn't even know about committees. I mean, this is kind of why my initiative is bringing awareness to all these opportunities because yeah, I was in the criminal practice. I was a trustee, but I was just dabbling in essence.

Right.

MERP  (01:10:22.846)
Well, people say, what is the State Bar going to do? I mean, that's like people's thought is what is the State Bar Association going to do for me? Why should I pay this money? And I think where you are, I think people can see the value where I am. It is, it feels removed from the State Bar because South Jer...

They're South Jersey and then there's South Jersey and we are really far south and it is hard for us to be involved in the state bar. feel, I'm going to say generally there's a feeling of disconnection to what is occurring there. And I say this as a North Jersey born and raised person. I am from Passaic County. I grew up in North Jersey, but I've lived my adult life as an attorney.

in Atlantic County and when I'm asked to join committees, which I do, and I'm happy to volunteer, I do have to say, do you know it takes me two hours to get to a meeting, which is impossible to do midweek. Yeah. You know?

And that's I talked to Angela about this and my first meeting will be in person. Right. Everything else will be hybrid.

everything else will have a remote option for it. know, just the because I do think that there's a place for in person for those that can for networking as well. But to be able to accommodate the, know, people raising families or the conflicts and things like that, there will always be an alternative hybrid remote option for me as I continue on this conversation.

MERP  (01:12:11.35)
Right. I would say in-person is always better because you're having those personal conversations over coffee or a snack before and after the meeting. But there is the benefit of having more diverse in area and backgrounds by being able to do it virtually as well.

Yeah, but it's good that you bring that up because I'm looking to improve and I'm definitely looking to get new members. Not only just raise awareness for the existing members, but there is value here. There's no doubt about it.

Mighty Merp is available on iTunes, Spotify, and all your favorite apps and players. But the best way to experience the show is to visit mightymerp.com, where you can subscribe, rate, or submit a voice message to the show. That's mightymerp.com.